Truth is More Important Than Harmony

by codeinfig (FigOSdev)

Today I did a very silly thing, because it was the right moment and the right audience…

No, it probably wasn’t! But I figured it was probably as close as it would get to one. Of course it will brand me further as a troublemaker, but that’s not entirely fair– I really wasn’t the one who started the trouble.

Devuan’s structure is clearly built on the bazaar– when they find something unofficial that can help Devuan more than hurt it, they just offer the opportunity to be official.

This is based on observation and it may not be true as a solid rule, but it happened with Devuan-live (and it’s one the best moves Devuan made– it helped me to believe they can make timely, great decisions) and it appeared to be happening eventually with vdev (unfortunately abandoned by its author) and it appears to have happened with the now-official Devuan forum: https://devuan.org/

Participate in our web forum : dev1galaxy.org

_

Maybe it will shock you to learn that I think this was a pretty good decision overall. But it does have costs.

A lot of people who want to contribute to Devuan aren’t ready to just roll up their sleeves and open a Git page. When I started working with Devuan (as a user) I had never used Git. Some people will opt to get their toes wet with the community instead, participating on the DNG list or the IRC channel.

I tried the IRC channel, there were some things about it I found too bothersome. I moved on; I’ve never liked IRC much anyway. I should have probably joined the mailing lists– I still believe forums are the better option for some people, and I’m obviously not the only one since an official forum now exists. There was an absolutely terrible option based on Discourse, but I didn’t consider is a forum so much as a wiki that had gotten transformed by Lennart Poettering. Fortunately, that server is not responding.

Full disclaimer for those who don’t know: I am also associated with a forum, which you may think is there to compete with the Devuan forum. And while it does compete in terms of openness– it is not Devuan-specific (it’s got subforum for Devuan specifically) and it’s not anti-Devuan per se, nor pro-Devuan per se; it’s anti-systemd.

Some people (even some devs) will tell you that being anti-systemd is a trap; but that’s lovely as a general philosophy about positivity, it would miss the point about why our forum exists–

We (some, or probably at least most of us) agree that systemd is a problem; we don’t always agree on how to fix it. In the sense that not all illness can be addressed by just throwing antibiotics at everything (they are overused even in situations where they can help) I think it’s worth doing research into more than a single “cure” for systemd.

And each distro that has removing systemd or making it optional as a goal, has its own ideas about what to do first; Devuan has a very large, very complex solution; but unlike systemd and more like a typical distro, it is mostly made of things that already exist and it adds its own work only when they feel it is necessary (I believe Amprolla is their own.)

They arent rolling Jenkins and other distro-serving solutions into a tightly-coupled blob that will soon take over the way all distros are made (and if they joked about doing that, it would still be funny because it wouldn’t be true.)

Antix on the other hand, moves fast and stays light. I find this admirable, and sometimes I wish that Devuan would look at how fast Antix moves and have a two-step (tick tock) towards init freedom:

Tick: quick and dirty antix-like solution

Tock: Devuan-esque long-term solution

This does “double” the work however and they only have so many people, so I’m not really asking them to do everything twice. But sometimes, if only to promote Devuan as a speedier solution and to keep making it look like init freedom (really is) possible.

So that’s a concept that is really meta to Devuan and Antix, because Antix will probably never be that way (I’m not saying it needs to be) and Devuan might not be either– but they could at least give this a little more thought.

And if both Antix and Devuan are entirely content to go their own way, I don’t think we can stop them– however, we can (at least) provide a place where different distros and philosophies can come together and discuss various ways to fix systemd. Then there’s some potential for cooperation between distros with a common goal– that might reduce duplicate work (sometimes.)

So when people say “being anti-systemd is a trap” I think they’re missing out on this possibility. But it’s really a matter of opinion, I guess?

Debian used to be more about freedom and choice, but they screwed up and created a constitution that would ultimately allow GNOME to partially take over Debian’s direction. We can certainly quibble! But this is largely “WTH Happened?” to Debian in 2013-2014.

And once that was the new narrative: “This is how we are going to do it and no one’s really voting against it” (it certainly looks good on paper, at first) there was nothing you could really do by going to the mailing lists and saying “Hey! If Debian does this what are our real choices now?”

“Suck it up or GTFO” are your real choices, and Devuan chose the latter– for which they are still criticised? Note that I deeply and sincerely admire the ongoing fight from Ian Jackson and company (if they wont salute you, I will!) and they have good reason to fight– Ian Jackson represents the legacy that Debian has already abandoned (no lie, I hope he triumphs.)

But for the past few years, the way to have real progress is to fight this from outside the castle. At least, some people say no but I really don’t have any reason to believe them. That reason may come; it hasnt yet.

One thing that was necessary was a place to talk about this stuff, and when the Debian mailing lists became too biased and hostile to those wanting to find a way around this mess (this is disputed, but I’m on the side of believing that the mailing lists were hostile to this no matter what– and I’ve spent countless hours reading the exchanges there) the DNG mailing list was created as a place where this could be talked about openly.

So I find it peculiar that the Devuan forums seek to enforce a sort of “harmony” that is very similar to the one that the Debian lists mandated, when the tradition of Devuan is to not be silenced, I mean.

To wit, people get banned somewhat randomly, but I get called a liar for saying that I’ve talked to people (hi guys!) this happened to– and the important part to the forum is not whether they were banned or not but it is sidestepped entirely by quibbling about whether a ban with a time limit is really a “ban.”

“It’s a breath ban!”

“It’s a candy ban!”

“It’s TWO BANS IN ONE!”

_

So no one’s been permanently banned yet. OK, was anybody suspended? Because not only does it appear that people were, and long-standing users were upset about it, but I was told they were by the people it happened to.

So how am I a liar then?

Rather, the “harmony” that you will find at the Devuan forum is that if the admin disagrees with you on anything, they will be allowed to say things that are not factual and easy to dispute, except that instead of being allowed to dispute them you will have condescending insults thrown at you directly, about how there’s a gnat buzzing in your ears or how you “obviously don’t know” how Devuan works.

Then finally, after a barrage of personal abuse towards you, someone declares “ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!” and incredibly, they aren’t refering to the way you’re being treated.

It’s unfortunate that Devuan has an official forum run by the Queen of Hearts, and that so many people I thought I knew from before all this have taken on the persona of frog-like subjects:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENDLDgje0Wc

_

For those who think this is just a casual snipe at a community I don’t care about, one of the fans of this new regime is the lead developer of a really great live distro that I happily used early-on in Devuan’s history– when Devuan didn’t even have an official live version. (I now prefer Refracta instead, but Refracta isn’t the only great Devuan derivative.)

Needless to say, not everyone feels like they’re being oppressed. But with the count of people rising who naively expected an experience at the forum similar to their experiences in IRC or the mailing list– you’re in for a bit of a surprise when you are either loved or hated upon.

I should really note that my first experience with all this predated the forum, and that the person I’m complaining about was someone I thought I knew personally/as a friend. We talked about all sorts of things, and I absolutely did hope that one day she could lend me a hand getting into the community a little bit more. I have my own theories as to what happened there, which I will keep to myself though Devuan certainly cannot be blamed for them.

Devuan both is, and isn’t– like a club as much as a free software project. People who immediately think there is a club there will probably continue to find evidence for that impression as long as they are looking for it. And a club isn’t all bad, the devil’s in the details.

That said, it’s really not impossible to get in, and it’s not entirely like a club either. If you want to create a Git account, just ask– you may only need to register (I don’t have the url handy, sorry. I’ve actually been meaning to ask for it again.)

If you are a user, you can ask for tech support or ask questions around misconceptions surrounding Devuan. Certainly no one is expected to field trolls all day, but depending on the whims of the forum community you will either be treated like a person or a skin disease, and it’s anyones guess (of course, this is all your fault. You will be informed of that much.)

You can certainly be treated unfairly anywhere you go, and Debian is no exception! But here it is just a little too easy to suffer arbitrary, unpredictable abuse from on high.

In most places this sort of thing happens, you will never find people standing up to it– and you will pretty much never find people standing up to it to be successful; this is hardly a call to action. I can tell you that running a forum (any aspect of a running a forum) is actually incredibly difficult, but my experience with the administrator is around one-sided friendship, one-sided abuse, one-sided bias and one-sided “truth.”

When there are questions, the trappings of “forum harmony” are trotted out. Well, that’s what happened on the Debian mailing lists, too. To be honest, I think it’s a bunch of crap.

Harmony isn’t more important than truth. It’s a good goal, sometimes its worth putting first for a day or two– but as a rule, truth must win. And some of this bullshit going on really needs to take a walk, instead of constantly demanding that users do.

Fernando, you were right! And what did you get for it? Joshua, you did nothing– but that’s still a crime! Fungal– I don’t really have to tell you about this.

And then there’s me. I feel I’ve been dealt with dishonestly and unfairly for years, only to see the person mistreating me promoted to official forum captain. (It is their forum, after all. But it’s more relevant when it becomes official later.)

I can understand why Devuan did this, but it’s one of the largest blemishes on their entire project. It is picking off developers and literally turning away users.

“Feel free to foul someone else’s nest.”

Honestly, “nest” was an interesting choice of words…

Removing those in charge isn’t possible per se (because the forum doesn’t belong to Devuan!) It wouldn’t change anything, because there are enough loyal members.

This is a cultural problem, and I believe it will (one way or another) get ironed out over the next few years (or it will just get worse, and that won’t be good.)

But in the meantime, the people pushing for progress and more honesty are going to get crapped on. Well, it was good enough for guys forking Devuan, I guess it’s good enough for the users.

It’s here that I really must add something very, very important:

A number of people (more than one) associated with Devuan have continually gone out of their way to help out despite all this. Rather than judge everyone as a collective, I urge you to do as I try to do and look at the individuals.

It’s more fair, and besides– groups are stupid: https://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160113-are-your-opinions-really-your-own

We can accomplish more in groups! But it’s vital that we keep trying to think for ourselves– otherwise, we risk being “harmoniously” inane.

Dispute is the “evil” cousin of harmony, and while harmony is nice (and diplomacy is valuable,) when the leader of any group has a monopoly on dispute in the name of “harmony,” they start to create a monopoly on truth as well as reality. This is why there are so many cults in the free software community (Don’t feel bad guys, corporations are usually cults too.)

This happens all the time in free software, unfortunately; Debian was mentioned more than once as a prime example. So why aren’t we staying the hell away from that in Devuan? Have people already lost the stomach for different points of view, or is it just some sort of privilege now enjoyed that we can pretend they don’t even matter?

I’m surprised this has taken hold so quickly. But I dont think it’s hopeless, just very irksome and very odd. If it does change, it will change through alternatives (like the day DNG went online) or through passionate believers on the inside, like Ian Jackson. I do have to point out that DNG has probably accomplished more from outside, but I still don’t blame Jackson for trying.

_

Having just discovered this “openrespect” thing, I have to say I find the whole idea rather sinister.

http://www.slated.org/respect_freedom_not_pragmatism

^ Linked article requires javascript. this archived copy doesnt:

http://archive.is/voanA

People will say this is just about me, though I have avoided naming everyone it is about– I’m not the only person this has happened to. I have said the list is growing, and it is– this should help to mitigate that a bit– good!