Short article/ Introduction to new development
turnstile replaces elogind consolekit works side by side with seatd
When elogind will either begin to fail or just not work too well without systemd, I’d like to see what those distros will do and who will they blame for their demise, or conversion to full systemd which will make them just like anything else. Will Artix be any different than Manjaro? Will MX be any different than mint or ubuntu? Will void be anything different from Arch and will they abandon musl? Will Adelie’s LXQT work without elogind or will they then decide to give LXDE a try?
With a project as promising as turnstile the real choice against systemd may be coming really soon.
If systemd is really developing, why is elogind progressively having more and more bugs?
No this is not about “I told you so”, this is about “I am telling you now … so”.
Quote from a favorite movie “Get Busy Living or Get Busy Dying”
systemd-free linux community 
Now let’s see if Devuan, alpine, void will use it.
if a gentoo user adds it to his overlay maybe gentoo devs will steal it once it’s stable.
it’s really a good news, now let it cooks until it’s stable
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By the way Chimera will go back to the medium strict list since they are moving away from elogind =)
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We will have to wait and see whether Daniel will make GNOME work without elogind or not :). Also, he has adopted systemd udev..
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Who or what is Daniel?
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Daniel Kolesa, aka q66, the dev of Chimera Linux. However, regardless of the direction that Chimera is going to take, hopefully more distros are going to adopt turnstile (for the time being it only works for dinit).
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Daniels son (sun) wipe on wipe off
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Unfortunately no, it won’t move back unless you want a very bare and bones base system without even xorg 😀
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I am nosystemD user and i can live with elogind or udev although i am not comfortable with them. Sometimes you have to make compromises and think what are the alternatives. NonsystemD users are those who are absolutely against systemD and those who prefer alternatives but want to have systemD as an option too. I can’t blame anyone but sometimes a distro that works with elogind or even worse udev can be the only option. What i want to say ? Well Void or Devuan which i use (now i am trying alt linux with sysVinit) have big repositories. Using a distro like kiss is nice but not a painless experience. On the other hand while PC LOS is 100% systemD free it does not sign packages afaik and i am concerned. Antix is nice but i cannot trust Debian developers. I can see Devuan exists thanks to Debian but it’s the team that make it unique. Sollutions with musl are not the best if you want to work flawlessly and distros like superboxon use the slackware way of thinking which is at least meeeh imho.
So what stays on the ground are independent sollutions like Void, distros with big support like Devuan and here we are. They use elogind. So it is good there is an alternative to elogind although i am not 100% against elogind since it is not logind.
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logind is more of a generic term for a login daemon, and consolekit and 2, also provide a loginf. Within systemd this system is called logind. Taking the systemd code, cutting out the init and its library, leaves what is called elogind (I believe a name gentoo devs gave to the rebranded systemd without the init part). So, elogind is really logind. If you check the version numbers of elogind they correspond to the related systemd version it came from. Elogind 246.10 comes from systemd 246.10 and so on.
You like Devuan but distrust Debian. I find this a bit of a contradiction as the vast majority of sw from Devuan comes directly from Debian, and the strange thing with Devuan is you can’t really tell what sw comes from which repository, something antiX/MX make very clear. Devuan pipes Debian repositories through their Devuan repository links.
Void has very little in terms of packages that Arch (obarun, joborun, artix) don’t have, which is not true the other way around. What void has the others don’t is the same (almost) system in a matrix of 5-7 architectures x 2-C libraries (glibc musl). This is nearly 14 flavors of systems, including still 32/64bit choice.
Systems that carry elogind are pretenders of being systems without systemd, based on the Pid 1 technicality. It is fine to full yourself systemd is not there but to run gnome desktop and applications, kde-plasma, cinnamon etc. you have to do an emormous amount of work to substitute functionality with alternatives. Is it worth it? Obarun still thinks so, providing plasma as one of the five options for an installation of obarun. They can barely catch up with all the patch work plasma and qt teams do to keep developing the desktop and applications. With gnome, it would be futile, the code internally asks specifically for specific versions of systemd’s libraries and executables, With elogind running behind 2-3 versions of systemd the synchronization of this task becomes tremendous in terms of hours of work and building capacity. Hence you need industrial funding and tech.support, fast huge servers constantly building your packages. So ask yourself why some of those distros get this support to do what is done.
You don’t care, you care about the end product coming to you in your desktop. Free at the end is not really free without having the critical mindset required by warriors of freedom. If you think you are free using “free” inside the bubble …. keeping living the fantasy, take the blue pill, and wear the “systemd free” T-Shirt which is IN-fashion.
All this so you can have the luxury to click a menu or icon of “synaptic” as a user and open up a gui that adds,removes, updates software, even use debian/devuan-src repositories and build and install software at the click of a button. Avoid the terminal at all cost, because it requires too much reading. Give a generation or two and reading will be very old-fashioned practice, icons, videos, podcasts, slide-shows, and endless verbal communication. Anything longer than 90s will be filtered out as a “rant”.
It is a shame we are losing you, being so good at reading and writing, which is a rarity in FOSS. Please keep trying to think a little deeper than most. This polarity in the unix/linux/bsd world of being Pro/Anti Microsoft is a false identity like many others. Being anti-MS and falling in the arms of Google-droid, of Mac-os, or Oracle-OS, IBM-os, due to eye candy and clicky luxury, is such bullshit (please excuse the expression) that it is as much of a fad as sports teams. A thinking person can not really find any logical reason to support Barcelona or Celtics or Seahawks, or Mumbai cricket. Industrial giants have taken over FOSS and jointly (!!) control “users’ data” whether it is FOSS or not.
Red pill Blue pill, what is it going to be? Red pill doesn’t promise any feel-good experience. You choose material reality or subjective idealism and fantasy? The bosses think statistically, it doesn’t matter that each and everyone has free will and can act illogically on impulse, they know that when they push the right buttons the vast majority will do what they want them to do. They count on the majority of those who choose a fresh machine with Gnome gimmicks, double booting MS-Win11, and this is what they go by. Mao spoke of some little fish swimming unnoticed against the current of the vast majority of fish. What does he mean?
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First of all thanks for the answer. I have to make some statements and some corrections in what you are saying. First of all you are not losing me. I am 100% against proprietary software and 100% FOSS friendly. But i am using proprietary software because sometimes this is what works better. It’s the same as if i don’t like Capitalism but i have to use products coming from a Capitalist. I don’t like it but i have no options. I am not saying i have to use windows or macos.- OK i use FOSS mostly but if my pc (because this was cheap enough has closed source hardware i need closed source drivers and this is what i am talking. Photoshop works but i use Gimp and find it equal if not better. I do not use KDE but i can see why some people using it because between KDE and Gnome the latter is just shit. Gnome 2 though was a good desktop back in the day. But we have alternatives and this is good. Personally i use icewm and xfce and in 1 case mate desktop. Lumina is nice too! And i use these because i cannot use a wm like i3 because i prefer the floating epxerience and not havin to remember all the shortcuts. I can switch to wm’s as i use icewm or sometimes i have tried to use openbox or fvwm. I made some configs but i had not time to fully concetrate on making a config. BTW Kwin can stand alone as a wm and add what you like. I am going to make more articles but i had not time. You see i work in a chemical factory i am Electrician but i want to work in the it-development-admin industry!
Now the hot topics! I am using terminal mostly and not synaptic or octopi e.t.c but i want to have options. Because i have learnt terminal and how to use (i still learning) but some folks like gui. I am not saying gui saves time but in some cases it is usefull. I.E i can install a distribution via command line (i have done it with alpine or openbsd) but sometimes refracta installer or calamares saved my life. YOU ARE NOT LOSING ME… i just have to work so more tools can be available in the future. See i told ya, i am new to development and still learning. Sometimes i can use for example ubuntu font which is nice but that doesn’t mean i will use Ubuntu as a server or in desktop. Same goes for mint x icons and so on… With that being said i use elogind (i know what it is and it is not controlled by IBM or Poettering). I like alsa and sometimes i have to use pulseawfull although i like sndio more but on linux it is not fully suppoerted. My goal is to make a distribution which i will call eucaliptOS (from the plant). But i am not ready yet to explore something like this. I like the kiss principal and i fully respect it but i want options. That doesn’t mean i think Gnome is the future or modern. Some people say Gnome is modern but i think XFCE is modern too without being bloat or systemD dependant. As of packages we can have options and i can see dev’s cannot maintain everything and i see why. Time is precious and money talks. I am not caring for the end product i am caring for Linux. But even Linux has IBM dev’s working on kernel so i am always skeptical and i never leave reality out of my eyes. I have to be a pragmatist and not pretending these all never happened. I have to work till we find alternatives and as i speak of now NONsystemD is not fancy or trendy. I am NONsystemD because if systemD wins the battle then linux will come to an end. This is what Lennart and Gates want in the end of the day. And that’s why i use elogind or logind but no systemD init. Because there are only few if any options to work without them. Since elogind is not that far from logind (it is far though) that’s not a shame to use it. Are there any good alternatives ? I am here to check them. Till i cannot use something with systemD nor believing elogind is the devil. I am here and everywhere to talk learn from others, teach whatever i know and even better to help the community. I do not work for a company and i am not related to various «wannabe lennart copies». As you know Greece has some of these people that say «foss» but still use dual boot. BTW you could talk about bsd’s too and i don’t know why you don’t do so (i’ve read your arguements though).
Last but not least. Material reality has nothing to do with Materialism. System (not D) has a plan to make people believe Material life is Materialism so it is something bad. That’s not true! Idealism also has nothing to do with Ideas as they claim. It has to do with spirits and so on. So just to clarify i have nothing to do with idealism.
υ.γ ο ΜΑΟ πίστευε στον Εθνικό δρόμο για το Σοσιαλισμό. Ενω ξεκίνησε συμπαθητικά το γύρισε σε οτι νά ναι. 😉
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I like to separate things into more meaningful elements, and first of all I separate the work of Marx with the institutions that are branded “Marxist”, in an effort of adopting a theory to interpret reality, come into a common objective understanding with others who may also want to change this reality.
Marxist institutions have been built in two branches, one in Academia to serve internal interests of those leading and those following trends, the other in partisan politics as organizations called parties. Both have adopted similar pathology of preventing any development of theory, to defend some form of an orthodoxy, a static ideological pattern, so the hierarchies are maintained and the organizations themselves. Not really what I believe Marx intended with his writing.
Back to Marx and his work, it did a marvelous job describing conditions and mechanisms of the time he lived. He inspired those who needed change the most, who pursued change, and eventually out of the inspired struggle came “some changes” for the class struggling and in the geographies struggle took place. So this construct of class organization called the state, due to this era of intense labor struggle, transformed itself in the least possible ways as to maintain itse existence and effectiveness (mandating social and economic inequalities, protecting capital as much without risking collapse and revolution). Marx may had expected a transformation but couldn’t have foreseen the outcomes in specific ways. So we can’t blame the man behind the work for not having prophetic visions.
I am very convinced that if Marx himself, and Engels, had seen the post WW2 developments they would have revised and expanded the theory to better explain developing realities. Then the 80s and 90s hit and effective struggle came to a stand still, thereofre it was an opportunity for capital to skip over its defensive plan and come on the offensive, conquering and setting new structures for its defense than it had in the past. It is this dark age we live now.
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Chimera alpha has just been releasead and I gave it the last chance before forgetting it. Booting the live iso I am immediately welcomed by systemd-udev…then GNOME loads, turnstile is already there, it works with dinit, but, as expected, elogind is there too, just not yet enabled. So, goodbye to my naive hope that the dekstop could have just worked with turnstile…I installed and enable seatd, then I made the last attempt to uninstall elogind and then came the tombstone: it couldn’t be uninstalled because it’s a dependency of xorg, of the base-desktop and a bunch of other packages. Systemd-tmpfiles was there too. I couldn’t find Openbox in the repos, I didn’t search for other WM’s but I don’t know if it’s worth the effort if you can’t even install xorg without elogind. What a pity, Chimera was a really interesting alternative but, after all, the dev has always stated that it’s not and never will be a systemd-free haven.
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Isn’t Chimera wayland-only? (another reason for me to avoid it, but that’s not necessarily related to systemd)
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Not really, the official iso has GNOME with X by default. What really disappointed me was the fact that, though the dev does not like systemd, he actually scatters important pieces of it everywhere.
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Trying to use Gnome without excerpts of systemd is hopeless. NetBSD, for examples, has a port of gnome, which uses consolekit instead of logind (thus no seating functionality), but also depends on many other other sadomasochisms such as Pulseaudio, Avahi, at-spi2, dbus, polkit,…
It’s worse than the Lernean hydra.
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I know that Devuan is still frowned upon.
But it might be noteworthy that teh Bookworm version of Devuan offers seatd as an alternative to elogind.
This is hardly enough for justifying a promotion of Devuan to the medium list; but it might indicate a trend in the world of systemd-free distribution design.
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It is no secret that Devuan has been in my ____ list for 5-6 years now, for other reasons not relating directly to systemd/elogind. Whether it does meet the criteria or not I would have to rely on people here to report and speak for/against it. I wouldn’t wast 10″ trying it as I consider it outright dangerous and I have explained extensively on why that is (covering up debian repositories and presenting them as devuan, mixing up clearnet and tor connections at mysterious ways, etc.)
But, if in fact it meets the criteria, and any distro that does, it will have to go on the list, otherwise criteria is “what we like and whom we like”. I may really dislike the author of 66, but that doesn’t make it bad software, and the other way around for other such pairs 🙂
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