How can Void be best the one day malware the next?

How can someone here, defend Void’s honor from a tremendously sloppy and unjustified criticism by the corporate rag (as in the piece of cloth used to wipe genitals after corporations take a crap, and they do all the time, especially on May Day and when strikes and mass protests are taking place around their headquarters) “distrowatch” ….  and the very next day attack void as being the worst form of malware that has hit the open and free software world?

Basically we are not a “fan club”, defending anyone as being god, or hating someone as being the antigod.   Criticism, for those that understand the term within rational thinking, has to and must be objective, to the best reasonable effort (that is all we human can do).  Only then can there be a dialectical agreement about reality, our best interpretation of it.  Despite of how many of you here, feel like they are finding a home at this systemd hate club of hooligans, enjoying braking knee caps of their opponents.  No, it is all objective criticism at something that is gradually becoming a “social danger”.  It is the Trojan Horse (and damn the damn Greeks for inventing this strategy to defeat the peace-loving Thracians and take over their land and resources, which they did, that is not Homer’s mythology but a historic fact) that is used by mega corporations to swallow and end this industry of open and free software, running on non-open and non-free hardware in lack of an alternative, which should be a social goal.  In this respect open and free software is an industry from those below against the interests of those above, a miracle or a mistake by those that rule and dominate.

We feel that Void is precious as a social construct, as a platform for good things that can come out of it.  Better than many.  But there have been signs of slippage recently.  Developers and maintainers getting so much into the details of packages working and cohabitating harmoniously (the packages not the devs) that harsh choices had to be made.

… Void, for those that didn’t know, was one of the earliest test beds of systemd.  They loved the stuff when everyone else was looking down on it.  One day they realized that it didn’t fit their bill.  They wanted to embrace different architectures and platforms, like making a parallel distribution based on musl instead of glibc, and have the two be equally functional and effective in all hardware architectures they catered to.  Short story is that systemd will not run on anything other than glibc, and would take enormous work to make it work with anything else other than linux.  So this is as far as systemd can go; linux and glibc, a sub-sector of unix forks.  Openrc, s6, runit, and many others are much more portable, in a true unix fashion…..

So devs, seem to be forcing the needs of their individual packages as policy for the entire team, and since other team members don’t have the time or the patience to provide better suggestions, they just let others do as it is necessary.  As long as things don’t conflict each other everyone in Void does their thing and the cumulative effort is what we see outside.  Yet another miracle, that this tower is holding up and not collapsing.  So, who made after years valid live-images for people to install void, when the previous ones were pointing to false inexisting repositories?  Are those official images, are they a collective effort and signed as void?  Nobody knows.  They just appeared.

The other autistic tendency void had was to support the most popular desktops and applications out there.  Yes, even the crappiest of all, gnome and cinnamon.  (I am sorry, are you one of their users, tough shit, go away).  With all the good efforts and struggle to make them work, some beaten and exhausted from continuously struggling, gave up and discovered this easy way out, using a piece of systemd (a good chunk of it) but which is easily portable (has been by others, not void, specifically I believe it was Gentoo’s work) and stop fighting the monster (systemd – gnome – pulseaudio – freedesktop – IBM).  All those other desktops, DMs, window managers, if and when it is necessary (not very often) used consolekit2 to satisfy their happy gui clicking customers.  Systemd believes in multileveled management.  Between user and the essential core system responsible of booting and providing a console, there are several layers of management.  It takes a labyrinth system like elogind to monitor and control all actions between those levels.  It is a pain in the neck to even audit a single machine single user system, let alone an enterprise system comprised of several machines and numerous users.  But it works.  Even a dummy entry level sys-admin can set a system up.  You plug in at the one end and go to the other end and it is working.  What happens in between only IBM would know.  If you trust IBM to sleep with your partner you have nothing to worry about.

When such discussions come up, the most hypocritical of all devs and coders will bring up the issue of security.  Security, as in real life politics, forces an issue to be withdrawn from the public social sphere of being political in becoming a “military issue” where experts are called to make the decisions instead of the “non-expert” public.  So when you hear “security” being drawn into a conversation, it is 99% sure someone who is bringing it in is denying to discuss a political matter and wants to convert it into a closed chambers meeting of expert generals in charge of security.  So don’t readily buy into the security “issues” as an argument as it is a common scapegoat by authoritarians to divert an issue to be discussed by common mortals.

Hypocritical!  Why?  Because those same idiots claiming expertise on security, want the “average user” to have access better kept for those better than the average user, but the transition of this power elevation must be handled by high security systems.  The clueless, retarded as I was called in the above mentioned thread, where at least two void devs are anonymously taking part, would ask if it is a security issue why give anyone other than root access to resources restricted as being threatening to the system’s integrity?  Some other clueless person may also ask, if the user has to have access to such system modifying resources, why restrict them in the first place?  But it is the elevation process stupid, that becomes a security issue.  Yes, but you are creating this complicating sub-system to be doing this elevation, subject to even more chances of being breached.

See, how simple matters are if you are not a military expert?  Just type % su and your system’s password, and do as you please.  But you’d rather click on things and let them work automatically.  Well, yes, you are not really secure minded anyway, you rely on the great fathers of void to protect you.

Now wait a minute!  Are we talking about one person installing software in their own machine for their own use or are we talking about a sys-admin having this mega-system in this mega-network, allowing users to login and use the resources?  Two different stories.  On the first it makes no sense, if the user wants to be root he can because it is his machine and he is root and user after all.  On the second example, are you going to trust any guest in your system root privileges to screw up the system for everyone else?  Am I making sense?  We can get lost here for days discussing the details and the sub-specific examples of should and shouldn’t for each one, and that is exactly what a login-daemon does.  It may allow some to some resources, prevent some from some others, and the when and how.  It gets very militaristic trust me.  You shouldn’t browse the net, especially chatting and loging into news-sites and social media as root.  You shouldn’t be able to format and repartition a disk as user.  You shouldn’t turn hardware on and off for the entire system as user.  Another user in the lab may be conducting an experiment with radio-isotopes and you just turned their hardware off measuring radio-activity, or took the transmitter out of a radio station.

So how does void relate to all this?  I will not reproduce all those things discussed in the above thread, I’ll let you take some time to digest it, take my word and wipe void off of your disk as malware, or at least malicious software (is it different?) or take some reddit ab-users’ advise and keep on “void”ing and block this site as a source of malware.

Keep this in mind though.  Many, many, really serious distributions, have no evidence of elogind and have many functional desktops.  Many still use gksu as they don’t buy all this propaganda on security issues with it.  Many are still using consolekit2 (the evolution of the abandoned consolekit which was systemd-IBM’s employees work) swear it is good enough, and even some really fresh really promising distributions just starting now ALSO utilize consolekit2.  Not to be extreme, for those gnome lovers (I almost slipped and said rags again), I don’t have an issue if a distribution says let them have it, we will build it for them to make their lives easier.  But keep consolekit2 for those that don’t want to use it.

THE WAY to go about removing software from a distribution, SHOULD (and here I accept discussion for which Void denies having any) first make a serious effort to alert users of dropping support, then remove it all together from their dependencies to it, then remove it from the repository, then remove it from the source repository showing how they built the thing they passed around.  What does void do?  Quitely, one piece at a time, cut the dependencies off.  Then had some little chat and comments on github, not really reflecting a “collective decision to”, just indicating that they MAY in the future, THEN ONE DAY, remove the source.  The binary still stands, has a dependency on the corresponding polkit, which now has a dependency on libelogind.  But tomorrow it may be removed all together.  For now, it is a binary blob, without any source to show what it is and how it was built.  You just have a size of a blob, and a name on it.  This is really slipping into unofficial microsoft off the torrent-land binaries with the name of popular games and applications territory.  It has never happened before in the unix world.  I had heard of the case of Kodachi not having sources, and it was reasonable to an extent, but Kodachi was just using debian repositories and scripts that you could read directly before you run them, I think they made a public source repository for their scripts to satisfy criticism from competition (tails, heads, kali, parrot, etc.) but this is the only case I had heard before.  Someone calling themselves open and free and offering binary blobs without a source, Void has broken the record for being irresponsible.

What else is there?  There is more.  There is recent history and several packages, that were removed by void from users’ installed system without their consent.  How?  Let’s say you take this package from upstream called gksu.  Let’s not start an irrelevant tangent here as well as whether gksu or consolekit are good pieces of software or not, this is not the issue.  You place the upstream source, you modify it and package it, you build it in your super-dooper-server void owns, and flood the users machines with this blob.  Then one day you make this package with the same name, leave it blank inside but have all the characteristics of a xbps package, signature and checksums for this piece of hot air, and name it after the original creator’s name, gksu-3,3-3, replacing gksu-3.3-2.  Not alert the user who didn’t pay attention of the size differential (do you, out of 20 upgraded packages becoming larger and smaller, do you pay attention to the differential size?) and effectively delete data (the original gksu) from your disk.  Then you click on this shortcut or hot-key you have for gksu nano /etc/hostname and it is not working.  Aaahhh… you should have been on irc 24/7 and have read comments elsewhere on github mentioning the removal of gksu, not on void’s github /gksu section (that has now vanished) but elsewhere …  and you would know about it.  You are responsible to know what different devs chat about somewhere.   None of those devs speak as they are void themselves, unless you are part of the little buddy group, you don’t know which one has rights to push software, who is just a contributor suggesting a patch, who is the “leader”, and who are the “lead”.  Nobody ever comes out and speaks as “Void”, except for the News section on the website, who shall remain nameless as well.

For years nobody knew that the “official void forum” listed on their own website was not held by them, but by some user who donated the amount to keep it running.  When other users declined his blackmail to have money sent to him to keep it up, he took this entire void resource and vanished.  All those discussions and historic documents displaying how void evolved, vanished.  Then the founder vanished.  Then the founder is back.  Then …

You get the picture, if I have the wrong one please tell me.  It is a madhouse and a babel tower about to collapse if some formal organization effort doesn’t hold it together.  I see clear signs of it.  I have also seen real outspoken devs, especially the one I had a serious argument on his fascism months ago about gksu, also vanish.  Where did they go?  Why?  None of our business.

 

WHEN you issue binary blobs without a source IT IS OUR BUSINESS VOIDers!

WHEN you fake popular software with their name and send out bubbles of emptiness replacing REAL AND FUNCTIONAL software out of my disk , It is my business.  You can’t use the name linux-5.5 and put nothing in the package just so you can delete linux-5.4 out of my disk.  What is on my disk is mine.  You are deceiving me of an improvement just so you can have your way on my disk.

How thick can those babel inhabitants be to think they are mini-gods doing any punk like act and getting away with it solely on fame and glory?

ENOUGH!!!

Shape up, and I am really sad void is allowing to collapse by the irresponsibility of its members, and I hate to delete it, and I am sure not upgrading anything any more, but I have to see some sign of improvement to turn positive again.  Till then I can only underline my criticism as stated in this thread at reddit.

 

WHY REDDIT?

 

It is the ONLY official forum Void lists (just click on the link that says forum on their website), I don’t trust to ever enter the hackerland called irc, or don’t expect anyone can keep up with chat on github on 20000 packages and 7 architectures.  Get serious when you make suggestions like this.  You should be serious about devising mechanisms to deceive users to have data removed from their machines.

I have rebroadcasted before Void news for anyone who have missed an announcement, you have gone as far as making April fools jokes on that medium, but you want to alert users of wanting to delete data from their disk PLEASE announce it somewhere with a low signal/noise ratio, or you are going to hear it, here and on reddit, and in your little buddy buddy chat rooms.

And keep your little pups and dogs (fan club) on a leash because we are a pack of wolves and we eat poodles for breakfast.

Is it a war against systemd?  No it is a war of people against corporations.  If you can’t handle it get out of the trenches, there is no room for apolitical flowerkids here.  And that is political, it is not a “security” issue.  Go smoke weed elsewhere while chatting on gnome, we have work to do.

 

64 thoughts on “How can Void be best the one day malware the next?

  1. I have no earthly idea why xbps drags libelogind and mozjs60 as dependencies for Consolekit2. There are not declared in the template and I do not see how they can be automatically discovered. Maybe libelogind is needed if you support both elogind and ck2.
    The declared dependencies are:
    hostmakedepends=”git automake libtool pkg-config gettext-devel glib-devel”
    makedepends=”acl-devel eudev-libudev-devel polkit-devel glib-devel libX11-devel pam-devel libcgmanager-devel”
    checkdepends=”libxml2″ # for xmllint
    depends=”dbus cgmanager”
    BTW, that is not a new version, it is the old one that has not been removed from the repos (yet) after the removal of the template and associated files.

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  2. “WHEN you issue binary blobs without a source IT IS OUR BUSINESS VOIDers!”

    If you refer to the template and associated files, they exist in the repo history 😉

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  3. I think it is the elogindish evolution of void’s universal polkit that is dragging the carnival with it. If I am mistaken, I can’t seeem to find the source for consolekit2 on github, not from void anyway. I suspect the template you are talking about is included in the package.

    Another can of worms.

    Void’s packaging doesn’t automatically reflect the compression method and software, as it is labeled .xbps. As far as I have seen it is xz, just a tarball renamed from tar.xz into xbps. It is not going to become visibly noticeable when void switches to zstd, which I am sure they will. They seem to be running after Fedora like a grayhound chasing a rabbit. When arch switched from xz to zstd the very same day pkgs ending at .tar.xz were named .tar.zst

    I made noise about ck2 because I anticipate the same atrocity to gksu, a pkg named ck2 with a higher version, with pressurize helium in it. I think when xbps-pkgdb -m hold is abused it is time to say goodbye!

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  4. Voidlinux does not host the code of the packages on gh, just the packaging bits.
    https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/commit/c2b89d6bff8354564f1a40e7354b64db79d899ba

    Deb files are ar archives that contain tar archives. RPM files are cpio archives with special headers. It is easy to determine the default compression algorithm for xbps packages:
    https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/blob/e603791e64c2ea533434134208d7d5e79d9b059f/etc/defaults.conf#L85-L89

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  5. I know you mean well but it is all about trust and once you lose it and have to dig all the time to see what they are up to it is time to move on.

    By the way, what is this?


    DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple Computer//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd"

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  6. I actually agree with you about the way older removals were handled. I also disagree with the proposal for removed-packages. I will very much prefer a new policy:
    1. Write down a policy for removing a package after x months and publish it in the void site.
    2. x months before removal publish a final revision of the package with identical contents, plus a message for removal after x months to be shown at install time that may explain the reasons, link to the policy and propose possible replacements.
    3. After x months just remove the template from void-packages repo and the package from the mirrors.
    However, the ck2 template was not handled the old way (as the gksu was) or with removed-packages.

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  7. The angrier I got the more I dug into their chatting about such issues on github. They have members (senior I presume) who have criticized their own practices and then the “issue” is being diverted always to some technical detail. But I am being cursed for criticizing their freedom to do what they like with “their” distribution.

    There is wide spread irresponsibility in Void. Many people speak to common mortals as they are the ultimate authority, then it appears that there is no authority (a collective one, to speak as void) and the different ones contradict each other. That is an indication of lack of organization. A group of friends meeting in the coffee shop, playing cards, drinking ouzo, talking about the economy, is not a form of an organization. None can speak as the whole group. This is my criticism paralleling void with Babel.

    It is actually pretty amazing how long this can go on without the building crumbling. But it is inevitable. There is no “void” taking the responsibility for this guy’s lightdm failing today (reddit recent post) and since this lightdm is madly rerun, restarted, crashing, on his installation he can’t log in at all. Yes, I know how to fix it, but it is reasonable the average user may not know. All he knows is that it worked for the longest time, he upgraded, rebooted and he can’t login.

    When asked what services he had running, he said consolekit2, among the rest! Who is responsible? Void as a collective, the dev that broke it. I bet you they are going to treat it as something the user didn’t do, he didn’t read deep enough, he didn’t dig into release notes, didn’t notice new dependencies or how they relate to their desktop’s functionality, and it will go away.

    They are looking at the problem and will not come out and say what is the issue. They are deflecting this into a personal problem. Some arrogant zsmuck (not smack) will come out and say “if you don’t like it ask void for your money back”. When I see statements like this, where free as in freedom is reduced to free as in beer by the very devs that supposedly contribute to “free” …. I get really mad.

    Again, the issue is not as technical as it is political. The key is trust! You have to earn it, not buy it.

    APPLE can come in and buy this Void entity and its group of devs, give them some play money and some restricted stock, and have them abandon void, and create this new system for this new hw architecture they have secretly worked on and not released for years. Who would be better up for the job than the Babel 0 Inc.

    … and the billboard says, come and play, come and play ….

    Alex Kontos, poor Alex, was purchased a year after startpage by this UK marketing group, system1 …. that was 2-3 months before it was announced, and he spent those couple of months in So.California meeting the group of devs that are behind system1 …. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3X8pP-4xTQ

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  8. Why write such an opera?
    Use VOID if you like it, avoid it if you don’t, add a custom repo or fork it if you only want to change parts.

    I like VOID.
    It has interesting stuff under the hood.
    But I cannot work on a rolling release for some undisclosed reasons. 😦

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  9. > Why write such an opera?
    > Use VOID if you like it, avoid it if you don’t

    This is exactly it, this is why I write opera and prose and satire.
    This neo-logic, the neo-liberal morality, is exactly what has fallen as the great plague all over earth and this is why the earth is getting destroyed. It is a department-store/grocery-store logic. Criticism is useless, if you “dislike” a product move on and “buy” something else, this is why “the industry” provides such a huge variety. But that doesn’t solve the problem of why resources are being depleted for all the wrong reasons, why the ecosystem is destroyed in an accelerating manner, it only says if you don’t like what results from all this destruction, just move on buy something less destructive.

    Smart phones have become a mass consumable product being replaced at the rate of 2/year for every (ab)user. Whole mountains are being torn up to dig for copper deposits to manufacture $1 toys, a cheap excuse for a neglecting parent that they gave a boring gift to a child. It is cheaper to dig up more mountains and destroy forests than to try to recycle any of the raw materials used. “If you don’t like the toy, buy something else”. We are all FREE to shop! Criticism is unnecessary.

    That is not an answer to problems, that is advise coming from any industry to dissatisfied customers. It is even more extreme in this exception to the rule of open/free software, as smart asses are quick to say “ask for your money back”.

    There is organic coffee from Chiapas available in the world’s largest urban centers, free of toxins, free of destructive environmental practices, free of oppression and exploitation, and at a competitive price. People don’t know of it and do not seek it or ask for the local grocer to bring some, because there are too many Voids and Manjaros and Ubuntus around.

    You want me to fork void because I don’t like some of their practices? If I wanted to get into something like this I would look at Gentoo, or BSD, but you think I am writing “opera” because of what I want to use? Does it matter what I use? I could be using Windows 7 all along, it doesn’t change anything. The criticism of things happening and evolving in the “Open and Free” software world may still stand. If you have valid reasonable arguments to discredit this criticism THIS FORUM is open.

    It is open for Duncaen even if I am now banned from “his” domain because he can’t handle criticism.

    So you brand this “opera” and you contribute ZERO to discrediting my criticism.
    I will keep using Void in both flavors just so I have a close look to be able to criticize.
    I will keep using Void till the day they switch to facebook’s zstd compression because it is fashinable, marketable, and will get them closer to be part of the global stock market game. This is why they are striving to make Gnome work, and many other crappy desktops.

    So, what do you have to say. Show me a current or historic example of how in the open and free software “business” there are other incidents of faking software using their name, removing their license from their name, and using them as trojan horses to delete data from someone’s computer. I have copies of gksu with content AND LICENSE, and a later package with void’s signatures on it called gksu with a higher version, containing nothing, just the ability to replace data on my disk with empty space.

    Opera? Yes, it is the world’s famous Void-Linux-Malware opera, I will sing it as long as there is no valid argument against it.

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  10. I like VOID.
    It has interesting stuff under the hood.

    As far as I know and can tell, unix, was meant to be a file system organized by the distributor, allowing the system-administrator to configure things on /etc/
    Void has this bad habbit of spreading things all around the system and worse of all advising the sys-admin to alter /var setup to regulate the system. Is this a good system? Even the way runit has been employed by Void is quite unorthodox. Void is striving to make the system appear like systemd just without systemd in it. They like the MX model and popularity so much they are trying to replicate it. It is like Manjaro just with an alternative init. Why? You are not an opera fan anyways, so I will spare you the drama. Say hello to any Void devs if you run into them when you visit Lower Saxony, Goslar in specific.

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  11. Quote: “When such discussions come up, the most hypocritical of all devs and coders will bring up the issue of security. Security, as in real life politics, forces an issue to be withdrawn from the public social sphere of being political in becoming a “military issue” where experts are called to make the decisions instead of the “non-expert” public. So when you hear “security” being drawn into a conversation, it is 99% sure someone who is bringing it in is denying to discuss a political matter and wants to convert it into a closed chambers meeting of expert generals in charge of security. So don’t readily buy into the security “issues” as an argument as it is a common scapegoat by authoritarians to divert an issue to be discussed by common mortals.”

    Someone has said (not quoting verbatim) something like: “Where experts arise, personal responsability withdraws.”

    Let’s face it, this pretext of “security issues” has now spread in the Corporate too (acting like a war machine indeed), which has learnt much from Deep State strategies & tactics, especially in the software business.

    Have a look at this page –and, if you are in a hurry, press Ctrl+F “security reasons”:

    https://onezero.medium.com/apples-secret-monopoly-5718272c16a5

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  12. @fungalnet
    Coincidentally, I was installing Void a few days ago, maybe just when you were writing your paper about DW’s review. And so far, I’m quite happy with it. It revives an old 32-bit netbook on which MX was too slow (even with Fluxbox). And I find their management of services quite simple, neat and educational — for what I get of it (I had never managed services before ever.)
    I’m not advanced enough to understand all the technical finesses of your last articles on Void. But I’m beginning to get worried. I hope you’re wrong but I fear you’re right.
    I’m begining to regret not having listened to the inner voice that was telling me not to trust a distro whose only forum is some crappy reddit. 😉

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  13. Two questions @Fungalnet
    1. To be a little more specific and serious (although I’m not quite sure yet to get the whole picture), the problem seems not to be as much elogind (in itself) and the way this “they”-Void-entity take decisions as the way they communicate or, in the case, miscommunicate to the user. Am I correct?
    2. When you wrote, in the reddit thread, quote: “Void’s decision to “support” the crappiest of all desktops is what makes elogind a necessity”, were you refering to Gnome?
    Thanks in advance & regards

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  14. Yes, and no. Antix, devuan, artix, and others have adopted elogind for where consolekit2 doesn’t cut the mustard. In technical merit, those that respect its role and I don’t, say it is very good, despite of its origin. The original consolekit I believe came from the same source but they decided to kill it. Then it was forked and continued outside of the “IBM sweat shop”.

    The choice to keep elogind and remove consolekit2 is different. “They don’t want the user to have a choice, they want to dictate their choice”. I have a gutt feeling that such decisions are taken indoors by some but not all void members, but I can’t have inside information to prove this. It is a reflection of Babel dynamics.

    The way they go about removing software all of a sudden is trully bothering me, and I brand it unacceptable and behaving as “malware”. And it hasn’t been consistent. It definitely is not done by warning the user but by deceiving him.

    The last part is having binary blobs without a connection to how they were built. Removing ck2 from git and still keeping it in the repository. That is so rogue that malware is an understatement.

    I was refering to gnome and maybe cinnamon, but I was pointed out that not even cinnamon is as bad as gnome (I thought the later was based on gnome). The whole distro is being reoriented to meet the needs of Gnome.
    Gnome is a product of the same IBM group, for which I blame all evil and believe it has been a branch of IBM for many years, funded by it for many years, and it just now became official. It is IBM trying to buy open/free linux software, control it, maybe kill it at some point and turn it a closed for sale software like ms-windows or apple crap.

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  15. Since you have been very honest with yourself I owe you the same in return.

    How do I feel about what I wrote? Really bad. I really do like void, up until a week ago if you had asked me I wish Obarun would dump Arch and base its software on Void. “My installationS of Void glibc and musl with s6 and 66 run excellent”. If it wasn’t for trying to keep an eye on arch development and how it affects obarun I would have moved my daily work on s6/66/void. I have self appointed myself as testing all arch testing stuff and try to catch problems before they appear in stable so Eric and JM can take appropriate evasive actions 🙂 Sometimes I piss them off, I tell them of breaking things that haven’t broken yet, like a palm reader, or reading the turkish coffee ground patterns.

    I think it is more anxiety and disappointment on Void than anything else. If I didn’t like it and expect so much from it, I wouldn’t bother. Do I give a damn that devuan and artix (not to mention the cheapest prostitute MX) using all kinds of tricks, elogind being the least, to accommodate any fancy toys freedesktop throws at them? No, I don’t expect much from them anyway.

    I also can’t help to sense that lack of organization (proper, formal organization, hierarchical or horizontal but I always propose the later) will drive Void to the ground. There is obvious miscommunication and partial decision making taking place and many just let too many things slide too easy for the benefit of “let’s just get along”. There has to be a point in human development where “high school” relations have to be put aside and serious “self-organization” should take place. This, only happens in our societies when people get to do something financial. Buddies all of a sudden become “business partners”, and economics replace acquaintances. It is so primitive I am rejecting it as a practice. People can’t get organized unless it is to make money together as a group. All other forms of organization is discouraged by this society and “system”.

    There are many many “contributors” of void, if you look around in github, there is a sea! But there is an “inner circle” (which the Phantom “xtraeme” abandoned as owner and returns as prince) and the “workers”. How is this organized? By the same mentality of banning me from reddit/r/void You disagree, you are out. In a state run this way, “you disagree you are out”, out is prison, gulag, exile, or execution. We don’t have to hear your disagreement anymore, we don’t have to reason against your disagreement, we have the power to silence you.

    Numerous strikes on all the different levels that I consider important.

    See, if you have a dream, and in this dream, Void is a big part of it, and all of a sudden you see Void being just another rotten apple like the many, you react. Some do, I do, some don’t, they just casually keep on walking pretending they didn’t see the rape, the abuse, the injustice, …. WE HAVE CHOICES… the grocery store shelf is full of different brands and color combinations, and flavors.

    It is like pointing out and screaming this brand of coffee contains arsenic, I tested it in the lab because I was getting sick. Then you have all those neoliberal zombies around telling you, be quiet, if you don’t like it try the next flavor, or the other brand. Some people like arsenic poisoning.

    This is different from an individual, an individual can be any nice or crappy or weird person, it is ok. When a group of people begin to have characteristics that can’t be controlled by formal organization, it is a sad affair for the entirety of humanity.

    You can only tolerate living with zombies for so long, then you start crashing their party.

    Maybe it is my upbringing, punk rock was a live thing in my age group. If they didn’t allow you to see the concert, you break their doors and gates and fences, and you either enjoy the concert or there will be no concert 🙂

    There is always Adélie Linux where there will be vacuum from the demised void. And they have ck and no elogind, and I hope it is a very conscious and collective choice. In Obarun it is just what Eric decided. You see the little Stalinist inside of me popping out, which I am trying to hide with so much effort and pain? NIET!!! in Cyrillic

    PS I don’t use ck, haven’t for as long as I figured out a way to do everything without it. Even dbus is vary rarely allowed to pop its ugly head. It is not like the move took any functionality for me away, or that I used gksu so much that I cared. It is the direction this void vessel is moving I dislike. If you want to use Gnome, take a hike!

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  16. Well I can see now why you are so irate. I could “sense” it was with reason, because, why, as a rational person, would anyone spend so much time & energy to encourage & promote a project (namely, here, Void) and then, the next day, “crash the party”, as you put it with?
    There is indeed very sad news in what you are bringing to light for a few days from the darkness & opacity of this bizarre binary (and manpower) management…

    I won’t erase Void from my 32-bit computer, just because of this elogind. (It’s a bit early. My installation has 5 days and I’m so proud I managed it. It was years I was considering giving Void a try. And I like it BEYOND what I had hoped!)

    But I will keep in mind your warnings. Very concerning.

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  17. EDIT (3rd line): and then, the next day, “crash the party”, as you put it with sense of humour?

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  18. @fungalnet
    Maybe that’s too late for you to care, maybe not. The concerns you have uncovered don’t have to keep us saying about Void the good things we think about it (you have done so, in a very touching way, in your last posts.) But to the point:
    When posting my previous message, I had to make cut it considerably to make it short. For, without really intending to, when respondinq to your testimony by mine, and just talking about my (young and naive) experience with Void, I somehow wrote… a Void review!
    So now, my question is: do you think it is worth its proper Topic?
    I just need to warn you that it would NOT be a “savvy/techy” review or installation guide, tweaking with code. But it could be a real, true, honnest review (far better than many I read here and there on certain sites I won’t name because they already have enough traffic). And it would be a review from the perspective of a false n00bie or somehow semi-advanced end-user. An experience feedback. Let me know.

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