2022 hardcore list of linux distributions without elogind and other systemd parts

        Edited: May 30th 2022 (replacing older strict list)

This list is going to be short and there may be a sublist of distros with a medium strict standard.  We shall explain what the object is, below the short list (which we hope the community will assist in making longer as we have not been able to currently review the work of every distro and fork).

2021 list of “healthy” hardcore distros in alphabetical order

  1.     CarbsLinux —> carbslinux.org (Kiss fork with CPT pkg manager sinit/runit/busybox )
  2.     Glasnost —> www.glasnost.org (Kiss fork – multi-arch tarballs)
  3.     Glaucus linux –> glaucuslinux.org
  4.     Gobo Linux —> gobolinux.org (Alternative filesystem structure source based glibc)
  5.     Hyperbola Linux —> hyperbola.info A libre gnu-linux  distro like debian with pacman, or arch but stable as debian in transition to a BSD system – so it will be removed again
  6.     Iglunix Linux —> https://github.com/iglunix/iglunix/releases, https://iglunix.xyz. (musl busybox no-gnu + alt kernels + wayland NoX)
  7.     Joborun Linux —> http://pozol.eu Arch base w/o systemd building env (alpha phase) Obarun fork/layer [core]  runit + s6/66.
  8.     Kiss Linux –> kisslinux.org independent from community influence
  9.     Kwort Linux –> kwort.org
  10.     Mere Linux —> merelinux.org  (alpha project – active again Musl + pacman )
  11.     Mutiny linux –> mutiny.red
  12.     Oasis linux –> oasislinux/oasis
  13.     Obarun Linux –> obarun.org (the most extensive distribution that meets the criteria)
  14.     Sabotage Linux  –> sabotage-linux  (most inspiring commitments and goals)
  15.     Superboxon Linux –> superboxon.com  Slackware 15 based BSD type init, no elogind,PAM
  16.     Venom Linux —> venomlinux.org  (forked from LFS – glibc now with runit )
  17.     Wyverkiss —> github.com/wyvertux/wyverkiss (forked from Kiss – militant against any Gnu tools – in case Kiss turns to them)

Please keep the recommendations going, for inclusion and exclusion from the list.  We can not keep and maintain installations for all of them, we count on you.

Hardcore because they seem honest and dedicated to the war against totalitarianism by IBM and other mega corporations to dominate the Open and Free software world.

Basically, after some odd experiences with Nutyx and its full turn into systemd-dom, basic functionality of starting X , such as vte terminals, filemanagers (thunar and pcmanfm) was impossible.  Why was it impossible?  Because they REQUIRE elogind and dbus to be running in order for them to start.  So off this site any further mention of Nutyx.

If such development spreads there has to be a differentiation between distros that include such crap like elogind, for obvious and overly discussed reasons, and DO NOT make their use necessary everywhere that there is no absolute need, to make it necessary.  In other words, there seems to be a new trend from utilizing elogind to accommodate needs of upstream desktop dependencies, but some distros go out of their way to enforce the use of elogind EVERYWHERE THEY CAN! 

There is a qualitative difference between drinking socially, a cocktail, a beer or two, some wine while dining with friends and comrades, AND being a full blown alcoholic where the first thing you do when opening your eyes, is to reach next to your couch, where you slept with your shoes on, and grab the bottle of 151′ proof rum to rinse your mouth, then swallow the mouthwash.  HUGE difference!  

…..  and such madness was listed as a systemd free linux on our long list! 

In light of recent development and discovery of such development, seatd comes to compliment consolekit2 to replicate the functionality of elogind.  Its use in Obarun made starting wayland and sway successful.  The same developer who wrote seatd has also written greetd, a display manager that is wayland compliant without using elogind/systemd.  So the common excuse “we use elogind for wayland” has run out, while with the last edition of ck2 (12/2020 note: there have been later updates to this one) the excuse of it being unmaintained is also fading.  People in the BSD ecosystem are contributing plenty of development for ck2.

The difference between elogind and (ck2-seatd) is size and complexity, and it is counted in multiples.  So for those who follow unix tradition of simplicity, single use, compliance with everything else, the way to go is clear.

Another proposal

What will now be a proposed as a medium strictness list?  Where distros choose to make elogind available, but not absolutely necessary for all X software.

We want to believe that all forms of adelie, antiX, alpine, and Void are still healthy, we are unsure of Artix, but we will investigate and take your recommendations and suggestions as they come.  Our last attempts to start X on artix without elogind were futile, but we may be wrong.

The screen is/will be:

Can X be started without elogind?

Can the most popular WMs start within that X session without elogind?

Can basic common terminals and file-managers start without elogind?

Can common file-managers work without automounting devices?

We can repeat this process with dbus, and there are situations where things start and run fine, even though they may throw some warning and errors for not accessing a running dbus channel, while being 90+% functional, and situations where they lose basic functionality.  Like LibreOffice has the entire prime menu bar (File Edit View … Help) missing when started without a live dbus session, while a ton of their other icon intense menu bars work.

Medium strict list:

  1. adelie adelie.pkgs.org
  2. alpine alpinelinux.org
  3. antiX antixlinux.com
  4. artix artixlinux.org
  5. gentoo (and forks)  (see the comment below by JM on why it is crossed)
  6. TinyCore Linux  tinycorelinux.net  (simply amazing size and functionality – elogind is present and available but not necessarily used)
  7. void voidlinux.org
  8. Chimera Linux —> chimera-linux.org  (moved down from strict list, it configures software with elogind ON!  Argghhh…!!!!!)

Help us fill the blanks here or remove the sick ones if you have direct current experience.

PS   Don’t ask me to defend consolekit/2 for any reason, I am not going to.  I personally don’t use it either.  The point is not to market consolekit2 as a solution but how to stay the hell away from systemd functionalities and dependencies.

Edit Dec. 30th 2020


This (Slackware & forks) was meant to be yesterday on the list, it is now removed, sadly.  It seemed to have been a nice system we neglected over the past few years.  Ever since Dec 7th 2020 it passed on the other side of one of the many distros succumbing to the pressure, biting the bait, hook, line, and sinkers.

5   Slackware  –> (Zenwalk and Slackel are currently reviewed, no elogind found anywhere, ck2    seems available – specific reviews are coming shortly – that is not to say that all slackware forks will adopt or maintain this commitment, and there are many many of them)

Spoke too soon, there is more elogind enforcement in Slackware than there is in Fedora!


197 thoughts on “2022 hardcore list of linux distributions without elogind and other systemd parts

  1. Maybe there is still time to create a sort-of toolkit for building clean distros, the kind of GNU/Linux systems that are really desired by this community. Fork everything and maintain the megabeast ourselves. (Wish someone had thought to do that c. 2012 or so.) Maybe over time, such an effort might attract more people to join and help, idk. Tbch, I am not sure I would even know how to go about doing this; I just want sensible and sane distros.

    GNU and Linux USED to be the domain of people who understood computers and unix. Looks like too many became apathetic after the RH putch or else maybe they have died off — a lot of those people were around in the late 60s and 70s when unix was evolving, so that timeline seems plausible to me.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. The only generational effect I see between old and young is that people used to have tighter bonds to principles and stood by principles even when it was to a practical disadvantage, or some form of cost.

    After the neoliberal 80s took an impact, principles became cheap and went out of the window. It was all about ease and cost. The cheaper and faster was the best way. Why fix a car when you can throw it away and buy a new one. This immorality of neoliberalism has spread to every aspect of social life. Why trust anyone and have faith on anyone when everyone is replaceable.

    I just got on LinuxQuestions trying to see if there are active discussions about some distro using consolekit still. Not that I care if they do but it is a damn good indicator they are not using elogind/systemd. So I ended up into fights in Slackware because some dumb-f…. there says that plasma will not run without elogind. I provided evidence that he is lying, and that choosing to use it is very different than lying that you had to use it. So they are slipping off into a side argument that plasma with wayland will not run without elogind. Which is different, but their response is yet more freaky religiosity that I don’t know what wayland is.

    So instead of admitting they were lying, they portray me as an offender to slackware and their choice. This is for pointing out that plasma does work with ck2 fine.

    So it is all about morality and principles, and as you say, passivity. If the dominant, the powerful, the mainstream is doing it, it must be RIGHT! Anyone challenging this is a psychopath!

    So I sing, “you are so vain, you think that the song is about you, don’t you, don’t you?” to idiots like the distro fan-boys defending their masters’ choices as god’s commandments.

    Toxic narcisistic personalities everywhere, especially around linux distros. So many people having their heads and tongues up IBM’s ass that it is creating a prevalent pathology.

    What can we do? 🙂 Just tease the psychopaths and create more need for psychotropic industrial medication. The more you advocate against the evils of systemd and more you invest into psychotropic pharmaceuticals the wealthier you can become 🙂


  3. I believe you, I downloaded a new image to see how it is setup.
    I played for a while with kwort in the past, but can’t remember what turned me off at then end, and I didn’t even feel like writing about it. I can’t remember what it was.
    The reason I wanted to test it out is to see how it relates to crux, what is different, and whether crux is also free of elogind/ck as well.

    But the image is not booting for some odd reason and I must have deleted the old one.
    It keeps running into kernel panick no matter what I try.


  4. Is Pulseaudio also to be excluded in the medium list?

    Crux has got several user provided repositories (poorly centralized). I suppose that only the main repositories should be considered.


  5. I don’t know, what do you think? Pretty much everyone has pulseaudio, and they can’t really enforce it because alsa has to be there for it to work. It is not as if they can take alsa out and leave just pulseaudio. So I think in this respect we are pretty safe, for now 🙂

    I am open to discussion on this, as this is a tentative list. I have heard very good arguments about elogind, most came from Adelie. Being as busy as they are the chief devs came out on their discussion list and responded with numerous reasons on their choice. The most striking was that they are focusing on the core of the system, not the desktop functionality, but they want to provide some popular solutions for their users. They don’t have the time to micromanage all those packages, and this take much work off their backs so they can concentrate on init and service management, utilities for developers, etc. They can’t be chasing gnome and kde behind for whatever crap they induce daily.
    Antix is also a good example, they really make an effort to not force it on you, and anticapitalista says, “you can remove elogind, and many things will work fine, but not all, and it is not recommended”.

    You get to use gparted and synaptic on Antix without elogind. That has been nearly unheard of for nearly 10 years.


  6. Quote: “Pretty much everyone has pulseaudio”

    True. Yet, this fresh piece of news at Zenwalk [dot] org (posted on December 26, 2020):

    “Pipewire replaces Pulseaudio in Zenwalk | Goodby Pulseaudio !”


  7. (Zenwalk’s dev’s typos, not mine. Possibly, he’s French too.) 😉


  8. Alongside Wayland and Flatpak we expect PipeWire to provide a core building block for the future of Linux application development.

    It sounds scary, the way they present it. It must follow the rest of linux development, a replacement for what is bad may be even worse! 🙂

    Based on the world’s oldest distro, using the world’s oldest init system, but are bleeding edge on audio software. Ok!

    So it has ck2, no elogind. Is this just zenwalk or all of slackware, I couldn’t tolerate it long enough to dig this deep. But if it is the entirety of slackware that belongs on the clean list we shouldn’t make special honors to zenwalk alone.


  9. Quote: “Alongside Wayland and Flatpak we expect PipeWire to provide a core building block for the future of Linux application development.”

    As far as I understand, Jean-Philippe G. quoted (ie copy-pasted) pipewire dot org frontpage manifesto. (You can check.)
    Not sure JPG thinks Wayland and Flatpack are the future of Linux, though. But it might be clumsy from him to quote pipewire dot org as is…

    I’m about to give Zenwalk a try, if the iso I just burned to USB proves to be a live iso.


  10. P.S. I found no contact form or email address on Zenwalk’s site or blogger profile to ask him directly…


  11. I even like their website, and watched a couple of video reviews http://www.zenwalk.org/

    Very nice, I’ll give it a try on my own and go back and revisit a couple of other slack-forks I have images for to hunt for this elogind answer. Zenwalk is a definite go for the list as it appears.


  12. As for me, although I’ve been thinking about it for some years now –well… since systemd spread all over the (not so) free world–, I have never tried any Slackie yet. Let’s exchange views in a few days?


  13. Yep, the site is nice: quite static and genuinely dark-reading. It feels like a peaceful place. (The hippy here talking!) 😛


  14. Plus Jean-Philippe is a decent man and humble guy. Here is what he writes in the “about” section:

    All credit and financial contributions go to Patrick Volkerding ! I’m just a enthusiastic geek : HE is the man who made this possible. HE inspired most of what we call Linux today. Please send contributions to Slackware.
    I will maintain Zenwalk as long as Pat CAN maintain Slackware.


  15. Hi to thee all!
    @funky Fungie
    Last night, I gave Zenwalk a try, 2 or 3 days after you, on real hardware –I erased the previous system on that purpose.
    (For anyone reading this, first do know that the Zenwalk iso is an installation media only, it won’t allow you a live-session. Once upon a time, there was a “Zenlive” iso, but they stopped years ago. Hence, for me, the need to have some spare computer to try it. I do not work with VMs.)
    Although never having installed ANY Slackie before, and once understood how to play the game with cfdisk and fdisk, the installation is quick and efficient. It installs LiLo by default, with possible customization of the place you record it to. I recorded to MBR.
    When rebooting, you finally land in one of the most beautifully set Xfce desktop I ever saw. But there are some annoyances. Mousepad won’t work, although it’s there, whether by the launcher (although I checked it is set on the right command path) or via CLI. Hence, I soon went to Terminal to know more, and THEN, I found out another big annoyance.
    My own bad, for sure (due to lack of experience in such installations), sudo was not allowed to me. (I forgot to put the user in the sudo group when creating it. So DO know that the user you add is NOT in the sudo group by default. (Which, Unixly speaking, makes sense.)
    But why I am a bit irate, is that I could not fix this sudo-issue as a root because the Terminal does not recognize the root password I set during the installation!!!
    Further report soon.


  16. Hi there!

    Hey, thanks mate, for having mentioned in your recent addendum that I had warned you. 😉

    For anyone else reading this, it was via a PM, so don’t lose time looking for this “warning” in the comments. But let’s put it here!

    Here was my source:

    As a matter of fact, elogind officially entered Slackware “Current” on the 7th of December 2020, as documented here:

    Both changelogs read:
    “ConsoleKit2 is gone, replaced by elogind (which also takes over for cgmanager and pm-utils)”


  17. I said 2 posts earlier: “But why I am a bit irate, is that I could not fix this sudo-issue as a root because the Terminal does not recognize the root password I set during the installation!!!”

    I do apologize. My bad, my mistake, mea culpa. I now easily become root. Regarding sudo and the user being a sudoer, Slackware does not share the same policy at all as do most of the Linux distros out there.

    Besides, Zenwalk provides a nice graphical front-end to manage users, groups and permissions. It’s when launching it and entered the root pw that I observed it had been recorded well.


  18. Yeap, I forgot to respond to that one. Many distros use the wheel group instead of the sudo group. You just edit /etc/group and add the user name to the group wheel and also edit sudoers and uncomment the part where root rights are given to the users in group wheel (or sudo, or both if you like). The NOPASSWD (ALL) option may not work on all distros, I think it depends on polkit and how restrictive it is.

    If you are sure of yourself and conscious, the no-passwd option takes the irritant away. Then you can write menu items or place icons/shortcuts on desktops, with things like “sudo gparted” and it will just pop up. But if you don’t it will just fail because within that shell you haven’t entered the passwd yet. This is what gksu/gksudo did, you write entries “gksu gparted” and a little window will open up asking for your password, then it will open the application. So many distros REMOVED gksu with the excuse that is no longer maintained and thus it is not safe/secure. But it had no bugs, what was there to add? Instead gparted.desktop runs and calls up through dbus to logind to authorize the execution, ask for password, etc.

    When Trident moved to Void they brought some tools with them. There is a new package called qsudo and does the same with gksu/gksudo and doesn’t require dbus or elogind, or consolekit. Trident may be a good influence on void. Trident came to Void from FreeBSD (I think, or was it OpenBSD they had made zfs work, because it is native in FreeBSD). Trident came to void dues to its stability because BSDs came breaking !!! Tell that to people think it is all fund and games there like a hippie commune. It is more a freaky commune.

    It is my love for void that hurts so much, it is like catching your love sleeping around with all the wrong neighbors 🙂 Damn you Void!

    Obarun + Void – elogind would have been the ideal world distro.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. I posted a reply to address how you depict me as a ‘dumbf…’ but you apparently are not willing to show my comments on your site?
    I tried the ‘contact form’ on this site but you seem to be opposed to private conversations “the openness and freedom of the community requires that all appeals should be directed to the community, not the blog administrators”… why remove my comments if you are so open?


  20. I HAVE NOT removed any of your comments, this is not a full time job. You probably triggered some wordpress screening for spam and they ended up in there. Let me check/find them and I will bring them out. This has happened several times in the past years, usually when you list too many links in one comment it happens, as this is what spammers do.


  21. There are no messages by you on this site other than this one.
    Did you post on this thread? There are not in spam or in pending.

    Where did I depict you as a “dumbf..” ?

    Help clear the misunderstanding. Are you referring to LQ discussions?


  22. This:

    So I ended up into fights in Slackware because some dumb-f…. there says that plasma will not run without elogind. I provided evidence that he is lying.

    I’ll post the previous comment again to see whether it will be accepted by the spam-filter this time. I save all my online posts prior to hitting “submit” because I have been blacklisted on several sites for expressing aberrant opinions.


  23. I just got on LinuxQuestions trying to see if there are active discussions about some distro using
    consolekit still. Not that I care if they do but it is a damn good indicator they are not using
    elogind/systemd. So I ended up into fights in Slackware because some dumb-f#. there says that
    plasma will not run without elogind. I provided evidence that he is lying, and that choosing to use it
    is very different than lying that you had to use it. So they are slipping offi nto a side argument that
    plasma with wayland will not run without elogind. Which is different, but their response is yet more
    freaky religiosity that I don’t know what wayland is.

    I was that dumbf***. Also you are incorrectly representing my opinions there (https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/what-can-we-do-to-build-a-larger-community-4175682665/page8.html#post6197436) and fail to respond to my statements here: https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/what-can-we-do-to-build-a-larger-community-4175682665/page10.html#post6197692

    Note that there is a difference between adopting systemd (thereby allowing it to replace all kinds of other system software with its own re-implementations), and adopting eudev and elogind. The latter two replace un-maintained code and are requirements to make some software work (in this case, wayland got added to make kwin_x11 compile and elogind was added to make kwin_wayland work).

    If you follow through on your principles, you should stop using Linux altogether since the kernel and the base toolkit are all infested with code from IBM and Red Hat..


  24. Guix does not fit, as they are the very inventors of elogind, and they promote freedesktop. X11 cannot be launched without an x login manager.


  25. Lately, Fungie and I have been talking a bit about friendly Gentoo-based systems. I tried to give a go to RedCore last night. It doesn’t work (at least on my hardware) in a very strange manner. See, it boots. It loads. It starts its default Plasma session (with due password). It gives good screen resolution. It connects, even wirelessly. It changes wallpaper, if asked. And then… nothing more. The Plasma menu displays, but no application can be launched. I had to hot-stop the computer to end the session.


    Besides, it sure comes without systemd, and with eudev but also with… elogind.

    See this page, § “What’s inside?”:

    The same seems to go with Calculate Linux. They (nicely) provide an exhaustive list of packages (as a downloadable raw text file) for each one of their many flavours, here:

    For each of their Desktop-favours, the list includes elogind. (I inspected only the Plasma, LXQt and Xfce flavours, though, since I’m not interested by Cinnamon for ages nor by Mate for a few months.) In all of them: elogind.

    BUT there is hope, yet, since there is NO elogind in the “Scratch Edition” nor in the “Xfce Edition Scientific” which may be a Desktop edition too.

    So, I may give the latter a try…


  26. There is a recipe for baking consolekit2 in gentoo, I am sure. Gentoo has organized the way to build packages exactly how you want them, mingling with packages you have already built. Even systemd is in Gentoo and Gnome, and sway, running on wayland, and pretty much any code on earth is importable in gentoo, as long as you are willing to do the work to make it fit. Gentoo doesn’t do much handholding into what you need and what you don’t.

    If you are serious about starting your own independent distribution based on the Linux Kernel, then Gentoo is the right place, no matter what you want. It is the mother of all distributions. So you can’t blame Gentoo for having something in their repositories, because really they don’t have repositories that dictate, they are a storage place with recipes to bake and cook your own system. Then talk about it. The primary reason for people building a gentoo is so they can discuss their creation with other Gentooers.

    Red-Tsausesku-Core I only tried with lxqt, I think it was the smallest of the isos. I remember very well what I didn’t like. Their installer’s configuration was flaky and it wiped out a couple of partitions of installations of other systems. Other than that the system was great.

    Clover on the other hand, seemed very similar, instead of Romanian Red it was Irish Green. But very similar. In half hour you have a full gentoo installation with some green cloverleafs for decoration. Since you are a week ahead of the guy who just started out yesterday with the Gentoo cookbook, you can learn more tricks in this week than the person who is still struggling to build linux-util, psmisc, and zsh.

    I know learning is fun, but keep an Obarun installation current and active so we can keep in touch! Then triple boot slackies and gentoo-forks, and clank-culate ..etc. 😛

    By the way, my void installations still function perfectly, still the same sw as before, and there is no elogind or dbus or anything running in them. BIG difference! In antiX I have some really dirty tricks to circumvent lack of logind/ck and dbus running. Dbus goes on for a few seconds, my wm starts up, then dbus vanishes. To restart X the whole trick has to run (as a script of course, I don’t have to do it manually) and on my conky I have a special little box than when a process appears and contains dbus in it or logind, it flashes and draws my attention, then my ripper comes through and kills it.

    Nowhere as nasty as Slackware.


  27. Quote: “Is your plasma running on X or wayland?”

    Which Plasma? If you mean Redcore’s Plasma, through which I could not launch ANYthing (although it was not freezed!), it was X. There is a Wayland option, of course, I chose not.


  28. Quote: keep an Obarun installation current and active

    I told you previously I tried to install it recently (maybe “6” 😉 weeks ago) with the last JWM iso. When I succeeded installing it, one year ago, I think it was via JM’s Plasma iso. (I’m not %100 sure but it’s very highly likely so.)


  29. There was an sddm release that created an issue briefly but was patched. Maybe this is the issue you had and Obarun’s plasma setup incorporates sddm running. You must have been unlucky. JM’s own releases with Plasma live are 8-9month old, and among other things his signature/key expired and that will create a small hassle in installing, although the installer getting auto-updated to the minute should take care of such problems. Even if you have 2 year old image now it will install with current up to the minute installer. The obarun-install’s first step is refreshing itself through the git (source code repository). So within 5″ of hitting the commit button in framagit the change is available in the other side of the world. If you decline to have it updated, it is your own damn fault 🙂

    Freaking DistroWorld after 2 years of listing Obarun, picked the wrong version of image to install with when the new installer had just being released, and he failed to update it. He had one release published in his site and used an image that was 3 months old. So Obarun is stuck with a DW review for ever now “will not install”. Maybe if it had paid the tolls, like others do, it would have had a more involved review.

    But there is some charm in being treated as an underdog everywhere. Arch blocking Obarun announcements. Linux removing Obarun announcements (because they dare speak of systemd substitution) … DW says it will not install,.. now LQ is placing a gag order ….

    Oh.. well!


  30. Anywhere I’ve seen this wayland plasma demo system it feels like a slag. It is like pumping cold molases through a 5cc syringe. On X it is tolerable.

    I made an LXDM-66serv script to run LXDM on Obarun and was testing it, so I tried LXDE, LXQT, and Plasma with it. It worked. Sddm is trendy, but lxdm has been very stable for years. It even looks better than lightdm (which brings back bad memories of Debian going under).

    Next stop Oasis, then back to Spark linux, I think I found a bug in it and I want to get intouch with Spark-man to talk about it. Then I’ll publish some more practical instructions on how to install and boot spark.
    Spark’s service management is as simple as % ssm elogind start and the crap will start


  31. I’ll post the previous comment again to see whether it will be accepted by the spam-filter this time. I save all my online posts prior to hitting “submit” because I have been blacklisted on several sites for expressing aberrant opinions.

    I have changed the way comments are listed under articles a couple of times, sometimes people don’t realize that when the list becomes too long there is another page of comments you have to click to see. I think this is what prevented you from seeing your comments. Again, none deleted, none placed on hold or filed under spam.


  32. There fixed it, it was a 20 comment threshold with oldest comment on top, so new 21st comment went to the next page. Now it takes more than 60 comments per page. That might take a while to load up.


  33. Oasis uses its own implementation of Wayland, inspired by suckless window management tools.


  34. Even though it may be implied, but not absolutely sure yet, should wayland implimentation be a screening? What do you think. Can wayland work without systemd/elogind?


  35. Even though it may be implied, but not absolutely sure yet, should wayland implimentation be a screening? What do you think. Can wayland work without systemd/elogind?

    Wayland itself is just a compositing protocol about showing in a screen a series of windows, each one for a particular application. An application can push something graphic to its window and has no clues about what happens on other windows.

    To obtain a functional desktop, you need at least another level: a real Wayland display server, which implements that protocol and many other things. For example, on Wayland/Plasma5 this server is KWin, on Wayland/Gnome3 the server is Mutter, but there are many smaller ones.

    Those Wayland display servers are some kind of super windows managers which controls everything and for doing a series of things which are available on a X11 server, they rely a backend: (e)logind.

    The systemd-logind and its offspring elogind does not only login sessions management, like ConsoleKit2. They do also the power management and input/output management being closely integrated with systemd-udevd and its offspring eudev. And even the cgroups (program groups) management.

    I would say that the (e)logind replaces not only the ConsoleKit2 features like login sessions management, but also a significant part of the X.org server.

    I think that is better to think about (e)logind as an important part of Wayland system stack, and to replace it on Wayland, to make Plasma5 or Gnome3 running on Wayland without it, someone should create some kind of daemons which offers support for the features which ConsoleKit2 does not have and it is not even supposed to have.

    The good news are that this spring the Fedora 34 will start releasing stand-alone XWayland releases, while the overall X.org stack will be put in “conservation”

    Let’s do not forget that this huge X.org is almost entirely maintained by IBM/RedHat, then is most likely they will put it down in the near future.

    If the systemd’s wide adoption given you PTSD, you should think it’s just a drill for the awaited X.org dismissal fallout…


  36. IBM and Red Hat then should be totally crappy for being unable after a decade to produce a replacement for a 40year old graphic system, to draw windows and control userspace. Why don’t they give it up already?

    I think when IBM decides to quit and shuts down those projects as absolute failures, X will be picked up by a team of developers and be forked and continue developing. Systemd and wayland nobody would touch without a 7digit budget. There is no reason for it. IBM can switch, use the code and have the development be done inhouse under private non-open source blob that it will sell. And systemd, as it has always been, remain to be forked with 1000 bugs gone under a real “will not fix” tag. Meanwhile elogind will have a year or two to catch up to that last buggy version of systemd. By that time nobody will have an interest in it. Ck2 will be much easier to refork and continue, it is more manageable of a project.


  37. OpenBSDi and HyperbolaLinux use the x11 implementation “Xenocara”.


  38. OpenBSDi and HyperbolaLinux use the x11 implementation “Xenocara”.

    Xenocara is a build system for openBSD, not a fork of X.org


  39. OpenBSDi and HyperbolaLinux use the x11 implementation “Xenocara”.

    Xenocara is a build system, not a fork of X.org


  40. IBM and Red Hat then should be totally crappy for being unable after a decade to produce a replacement for a 40year old graphic system, to draw windows and control userspace. Why don’t they give it up already?

    Wayland itself is ready since long time, but the trick is that itself does just the basics.

    Now, if you want to talk how ready are Wayland servers like KWin or Mutter to replace the X.org, this is another story.

    Just with the title of information, I use Wayland/Plasma5 since 3 years or so. On SUSE.

    And it works quite well.

    Same does the Wayland/Gnome3 and I would say that this one is significant better.

    I think when IBM decides to quit and shuts down those projects as absolute failures, X will be picked up by a team of developers and be forked and continue developing.

    And who will pay this team of developers? Which company will put the moneys on maintaining this spaghetti code from X.org when there will be another and better solution?

    Did you know how many moneys costs this monster of X.org to be maintained?


  41. It would cost much less money if the capitalist-imperialist-demiurgolatrist members of the Linux Fornication did not permanently produce more and more perverted and corrupt hardware instead of the tried and tested existing one.

    Woeland Pla$ma does not work at all, especially not with PS/2 mice or without wasteful 3d cards.


  42. Woeland Pla$ma does not work at all, especially not with PS/2 mice or without wasteful 3d cards.

    Hey, Hysterical Mushroom! Did you seen what written here Herr Schilling?

    Isn’t time for you to become hysterical as usual?

    Because Herr Schilling do not specified clearly the context where KDE Wayland Plasma does not work.

    What he said is a BIG LIE out of context!

    Tell to this big LIAR that KDE Wayland Plasma works with a PS/2 mice and a graphics card given by a 10W Celeron soldered on board.

    Proof? I’ve just posted this using this mini PC running openSUSE Tumbleweed.


  43. Re: Anonymous

    schillingklaus seems to have a brain that works, you appear to have a systemd “feature”.

    Hysterical? I “will not fix” your brain for you. Your role model in life Leo Poettering will, he has a soft spot for “disabled people”. This is what he calls his “market”.


  44. @Oneirosopher, I had been trying Redcore Linux many times but I always had the same problem: both the live iso and the installed system didn’ launch anything but the very first app 🙂 So I was rather skeptical while trying the very latest alpha live iso, and in fact nothing changed. However, I tried to launch the installer after I logged in the plasma Desktop and..finally it worked! I could sync and update, and so far so good, everything works fine. The distro features a red theme that I personally like, though it looks kind of unpolished yet, and it couldn’t be otherwise since it’s basically an one-man project, developed by a Romanian guy. The package manager is portage, being a Gentoo derivatives, and I personally don’t like it as much as pacman: it seems much more sluggish and a system update took more than a hour , despite not being such a huge size. Overall my impression is good and I will keep it for now, but I repeat, take it the live iso only as an installer until the dev fixes its stuff.


  45. Pingback: Avoiding #systemd and other #ibm vendor lock-in traps https://sysdf… | Dr. Roy Schestowitz (罗伊)

  46. Pingback: Links 30/1/2021: Wine 6.1, LibreOffice New Generation | Techrights

  47. The links provided by Firasuke in a comment about Glaucus might mention a few more hardcore or second tire distribution, but this must be carefully evaluated.


  48. Mutiny sounds great, but it is still barely past planning. Pulseaudio and dbus are intended to be avoided. They even mention a substitute for dbus to be made by the inventors of s6, which is named skabus.


  49. Zandra sounds also promising once it provides bare-metal functionality. A statement from their site:

    Compact and easy-to-understand
    codebases are also heavily prioritized. In order to stick to our philosophy in
    an elegant and practical manner, software such as systemd, electron, and huge
    desktop environments like GNOME and KDE are intentionally not supported in the
    system, among others.


  50. Anyone have sndio (from some BSDs) as a sound-management option?


  51. This looks healthy, if ambitious an thus slow going: https://github.com/tpimh/nenuzhnix

    “what it will never have

    • any of poettering’s bloatware in base system (this means no systemd, yay!)
    • xorg or any other xserver (wayland ftw!)
    • scripts written not in posix shell in base system and their interpreters
    • any code from gnu project (this makes this projects a pain)”


  52. Have you said why Dragora isn’t on your hardcore list at this time? It is currently in (albeit perpetual) beta but seems less half-baked than some you have listed already.

    Liked by 1 person

  53. Hello,

    As I have said few months ago, I’m working on a Linux distro designed with beginners point of view in mind but with all the features that power-users can expect. And now my work is almost done because I released the first usable version few weeks ago.

    My distro, name “superBoxon” (which means “big mess” in French), is a pre PAM fork of Slackware, so it doesn’t contains PAM, neither elogind and others.

    It is providing all the features that users can expect from a modern GNU/Linux distribution.

    His init system is based on SysVInit plus OpenRC which allows for improved management of services running in background.

    Management of authorizations is actually still made by PolicyKit and ConsoleKit2, and the user login is managed by LXDM, but I am working to try to get rid of them if possible.

    SuperBoxon can be used without changing the content of the computer if started from a USB flash drive, but can also be installed on the hard disk drive of the host computer.

    All softwares are pre-installed in a virtual environment, so for the user, the installation can be summarized to a single download as the software becomes available immediately after.

    My goal by making this distribution is to get the best balance between the strength and the usability.

    So, to try it, go at superboxon.com


  54. Hello,

    The new release I will make available soon will not comply to the standards you ask to be systemd free, so please can you remove my previous comment and this one in a way to not mislead potential users as superboxon.com is now disabled.



  55. Iglunix: no GNU, no systemd, replaces udev with libudev-zero, uses seatd


  56. Interesting, I haven’t tried building it but I added it.
    One thing I would recommend (if the authors are reading this) is to add a pkg description because not all of us can remember what each pkg name is .

    Discord is too invasive of a platform to use for communication, and for a distribution that hasn’t been able to provide a common browser to have discord as a forum is a bit of a contradiction.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. I don’t exclude any distros here, even in alpha/beta or non bootable forms, but THERE IS NO MIDDLE MAN IN THE COMMUNITY.

    You wanted Gobo linux listed here, just add a comment with a link and it would have been added. I can’t download and test every system out there, there are hundreds, and Gobo linux shows no info about whether or not elogind is an essential part of it. Or does it and I missed it.

    Gentoo-AB-users could have been using systemd and elogind if they wanted, and so did slackware users, but NOW it is everywhere in their recipes and build-templates, so neither are here,

    /Programs/s6/s6-rc 🙂

    Brazilians (if they actually are) have a good sense of humor


  58. I was using gentoo until elogind was forced down, and ck wasn’t even broken, it was just unmaintained (it worked perfectly fine), imo, you don’t just update for the sake of updating if the thing works fine, but fine, I gave up after 20 years using and having a personal repository, I don’t think I’m coming back anytime soon (they’re making a mess in other areas too).
    About Gobolinux, I know Lucas from Gobolinux, he’s a really good developer and a really good person, and yes, he’s brazillian (not sure if there’s others) . Actually the point of GoboLinux is using a different approach for applications (applications directories, multiple versions, etc).


  59. With a list of 12 systems I don’t think it is important but it can be done.
    Basically the list started if you remember with 3-4 known systems then more and more suggestions came and a couple were removed.


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