Zenwalk Slackel Salix – Slackware without systemd?

Run, don’t just add it on the TDO list, and download images from those two (Salix is dormant and part of Slackel) and if you do an installation, DO NOT do a network install, do copy from live image, or from CD.  We will explain later, while you are downloading those historic pieces of Slackware forks.

Cut them some slack?  New Years day and all happy hunky dory crap….  Not here folks, go to Phoronix or Fedora-Magazine for such festive atmosphere.

In our latest article about a stricter list of Linux distributions without systemd we located only 4 distributions up to now and we were asking for help from the community to locate the 5th, or more.  A year ago we didn’t think it was that important, there were many.  Many of what, you ask!  Many that did not use systemd as init but also did not use elogind to support some demanding desktop setups.  The common alternative for those who wanted to both support a variety of desktops and their software, is (IS) ConsoleKit2.  Many of us who prefer a simpler system, a window-manager (either with floating or tiling windows) like to use the terminal to start and run anything, there may have not been any need for either one.  Not even dbus.  Not with all distributions, and it all depends on choices they make.  Slackware has made it impossible to use with elogind.  You can hardly use the console in Slackware without elogind/libelogind. 

  • I have not seen a worse case scenario, but I haven’t seen everything.  There are more than 500 distros and forks out there, nearly half choose not to even list themselves in Distrowatch because of how they are portrayed, intentionally outdated unless they pay.  Who can distro-hop throughout this entire ocean of distros?

How did we get a recent interest in Slackel/Zenwalk?  Slackel we had seen and run a while back because Slackware + Openbox = Slackel.  We remembered something positive out of the experience.  Zenwalk has recently suggested by Oneirosopher as a possible candidate for out new list of elogind-less distros, and also because of the announcement of pipewire

In the hunt to find more distros that both rejected the use of systemd and elogind, the thing to do is search for linux and consolekit in recent threads of forums, blogs, articles, announcements.  So we run into most of the threads in LinuxQuestions relating to Slackware, there is hardly mention for anything else in LQ.  Could it be true, Slackware has been such a healthy distribution for years and we neglected to pay extra attention to it?  We JINXED it!

Back to our victims, Zenwalk, Slackel, Salix.  Salix is dormant as the people contributing in Salix and some of those in Slackel seem to be about the same.  One is the head of Salix another is the head of Slackel, but they seem to be friendly and cooperating.  Zenwalk and Slackel are active and current distributions.  Zenwalk comes with an image that is about 1GB and from experience you would expect a traditional live system with a desktop or window manager and some initial proposed set of software, together with an installer.  Not true in Zenwalk.  Zenwalk has the most minimalist system we have ever seen, it barely boots and runs the installer, that is it.  Not even much of a console functionality.  So why is it 1GB?  Because all the necessary packages are included in cache in the live system.  Basically you configure and mount a partition through the installer and the pkgs are handled by the package manager and installed.  Very nice, you don’t have to have a network and you don’t get a modified copy of a live system as your system, it is freshly really installed pkg by pkg.  And we suspect the package manager checks for integrity and authenticity of those packages against their origin, which by copying a live system you can never really know.  Especially with forks of systems, the originals may have been altered and what you get may not be what came from the base distribution.

The installer works.  It has an amazing amount of options and questions but are very clear as to what the answer should be.  When it is done, it notifies of a successful installation, it reboots, ejects the CD (unmounts the USB or VM iso image) and boots.  In terms of aesthetics, together with Artix, this is the best looking nicest working xfce setup I have seen.  I do like dark themes, and this I like.  For some reason, it probably relates with how the package manager works, the space needed to make an installation is nearly double or more than it really takes up when it is done.  Most likely too many packages at once, are uncompressed, exploded, then copied.  Unlike pacman and xbps that do pkg by pkg and direct uncompression and installation to chroot.

The sad part is that if you learn how to use the package manager, update with current slackware and upgrade all packages, you tend to download another 1GB worth of software, consolekit2 is removed, and elogind is installed.  Nearly all software replacement is done due to this change.  So your fine system turns into an IBM dummy terminal connected through dbus-elogind-…..-IBM-(and beyond!).

The real positive development that can probably be borrowed from Zenwalk’s setup is that instead of pulseaudio, if alsa is not enough for you, you can now use pipewire.  See an article (the latest of news in Zenwalk’s pretty site).

Scratch, dump, forget.

Go to Slackel, I once remembered trying it (maybe 2 years ago) and I remember liking it back then but not enough to look away from Obarun.  The summer 2020 image (072020 I believe and I don’t remember because I don’t want to go back and look – that bad!) which appeared to be last, is even more impressive than Zenwalk, basically because I’d rather have a WM than a desktop, and among all WMs I choose Openbox.  Although their setup is more like a full desktop than a WM.  Panels, menus, conky (windowed that somehow I couldn’t recreate as a non-windowed embeded module, as usual – something peculiar about the way conky is built and throws errors out or reappears as a window even when you turn the windowed option off). 

You get a traditional live window manager with Slackel and software to make an equivalent to live installation, no network necessary.  The installer gui though is a bit buggy, at least in a virtual environment.  It doesn’t provide much documentation, help, or even hints, it has a left drop-down menu for copy live, and a right no-drop-no-down for net installation.  The one on the left allows you to select partition to use, the right only allows sda1 (so nothing to drop nothing to come down, other than sda1).  No matter what we tried /dev/sda1 was fixed.  So we did this in a vm to be safe, and did provide an sda1 although we meant to use the copy live option.  The relation of copy-live –> partition and net-install –> partition is speculative, not very clear, hence the insecurity that the wrong partition will be wiped out if we hit “install” and go.  From videos on the net there seems to be little difference for years.  The forum doesn’t automatically register users and we never got an email from admins, so after a week no way to ask a question.  Oneirosopher on the other hand, who really liked both, and I don’t blame him, got in touch via-email, but not about this issue.

Slapt-get –update and slapt-get –dist-upgrade (debian influence in apt appearance and functionality but all similarities stop at the names of commands) is very nice.  It is flexible and provides tons of options, unlike apk in alpine/adelie (possibly others).  It is almost as good as pacman but it is nowhere as fast.  It might be an illusion, I didn’t time it, but when a package is upgraded with slapt-get, every single file that is deleted and every file that is written to upgrade, is printed on the screen.  Tons of unnecessary output could be the reason the package manager feels so slow.  Consoles (and terminal emulators of consoles) have rates of how fast they can draw text on the screen and the defaults are at mid-80s mainframe terminal speeds.  They can actually do several times faster than that but all you may get to see is gray cloudiness.  If they could suppress all this output maybe they can stand together in the podium with pacman and xbps as a third.

Then there is another tool, slapt-src which updates, searches, downloads, builds, and installs software from source, placed in slackware compatible slackbuild format, in separate repositories.  The repositories available through slackel don’t seem to provide any support for elogind, and even have a consolekit2 wrapper called nologind still available.

After the upgrade, not only xinit/startx needed elogind to start an X session, even some software that have never needed consolekit2 or elogind or systemd to run, would fail if you removed or shut-down elogind.  Like pcmanfm.

Pcmanfm, in Obarun, (and I think Artix, Void, and others), comes straight from Arch (a systemd distribution).  If it is current in arch and void, you know there hasn’t been an upstream release for a while.  About 8 months as it seems.  It runs in my obarun without elogind, without running consolekit2, or dbus.  No errors or warnings produced.  It is CLEAN!  So why has Slackware made it DIRTY?  So you can’t escape not using elogind no matter what you tried.

They didn’t just add elogind for functionality of gnome, and/or wayland for gnome and plasma, maybe sway as well is added in slackware, who knows, AND WHO CARES, they have added IT everywhere they possibly could.

Is it Slackel’s fault, is it Zenwalk’s fault?  No, probably not, and the change seems to have come so abrupt there is little they can do right now.  To revert to pre-December 7th repositories, mirror them and start rebuilding everything in slackware for their own repository, would take time if there was a will to do so.  Meanwhile their users will continue to upgrade from Slackware, because that is what users do.  So, if they have the setup they like, the previous functional pieces of software by slackel/zenwalk, why move to a different base.  They may as well stay with Slackware and abandon the two forks.

For romantic sentimental historic preservation purposes, download the pre-Dec-7th-2020 images for both Slackel and Zenwalk, just to have as reference, what was there and what was lost.

References:  (rest in peace-s)

slackel.gr

salixos.org

zenwalk.org

 

A very sad development and realization.  Unfortunately Slackware and forks have been listed in the really long list of unix-like systems without systemd.  They are not going to be removed, just ignored and forgotten.

The real list of struggling and courageous distributions only has 4, possibly 5 with the  possible addition of Oasis.

We may lose some fans and friends in this lonely less walked path we are following, but we believe the path less traveled is the path most worthy.  The easy paved paths all lead to a trap.  Same trap you tried to escape and begun walking in the first place.  So go ahead, keep running circles around your masters.

 

PS  To give slackware some credit in other respects, they have openrc, s6, and runit on their repositories.  We installed runit in our slackel installation and removed sysvinit (although it is not necessary as long as you point a link of /sbin/init –> runit and move the halt/shutdown/reboot functionality from sysvinit’s to void’s.  It booted fine, and the runit-services package it provided runscripts/service-files for anything you can possibly imagine.  We suspect that s6 and OpenRC are equally well setup.  But this has no effect in reverting the elogind dilemma.  Out of disappointment and spite, we will erase the installations we did for both or three, salix as well, although it doesn’t differ significantly from a slackel installation, do it again from scratch but do not upgrade anything.  Maybe add some packages from salix that are all pre-elogind.  Then try all available init/service supervision systems, possibly add 66 on top of s6 too. 

30 thoughts on “Zenwalk Slackel Salix – Slackware without systemd?

  1. Just my 2 cents of my personal experience:
    Slackware is a great and historic distribution. but it just don’t fits, when coming to terms of an everyday working system.
    It’s package manager is archaic and every time you want to install a new package, you have to do yourself all the dirty work. (The infamous “dependencies hell”). Unless you’re a real expert and you have a herculean patience, just don’t go there!

    Slackel will may be an option, but currently it’s at pre-Alpha stage at terms of quality. It’s graphic installer is very buggy and completely useless and I couldn’t find a command-line alternative.
    I tried it both at VBox and at my (real) PC. Also I couldn’t get any real support from the developer. When I reported the bug, I got the answer that it works on his PC and he never got any other report.
    So, unless you want to rewrite it’s installer yourself, just don’t waste your time at Slackel.

    Happy New Year everyone!!! 😉
    G.

    PS. At terms of sound, Alsa is the only thing I need, but we may want to take a closer look at Pipewire, which looks very promising.

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  2. Hi Giorgos!

    Of cource there is a CLI package-manager in Slackel. There are even TWO of them, depending if you install pre-compiled binaries or from source. Namely:

    slapt-get
    slapt-src

    see here:
    https://sysdfree.wordpress.com/2021/01/01/335/

    I have not enquired if Zenwalk’s package-manager netpkg is installable on Slackel –I just checked, last night, the vice-versa: adding Slackel’s sources to Zenwalk, I have been able to download stuff from Slackel’s repos. Stay tuned as I will report as soon as I have checked. That may be of some interest since I found in Zenwalk’s netpkg a very capable package-manager, which defaults with many options and is designed to be very informative and interactive.

    Happy New Year to you too! 🙂

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  3. Oh…I didn’t know!
    Then I’ll give it another try. From console, this time.

    THANKS Oneirosopher!!! 😉

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  4. @Fungalnet

    Nice report by the way 🙂 loaded with informations.

    Although its last developments are now aging, would you not recommand installing Salix, on whose repos this nologind is?

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  5. You’re welcome Giorgos 🙂
    Another Greek in the Outerspace? (I just read your post quoting Thucydides on another page. Nice quote. William Shakespeare would not have said better. 🙂
    There is a category written in Greek in its own right in Slackel’s forum. Slackel = SLACKware + ELLenike.
    Dimitris is very dedicated to answer any question.

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  6. @Fun
    I think Dimitris was truely not aware nor warned by the guys at the Slackware mother-distribution that they would perform such a shift, and I suspect that this is the reason why he had to rebuild another iso only six months after the previous, yet more than 3 weeks after the fateful 7th December. (If he had been informed earlier, Slackel’s latest iso would have followed quicker…) I have not read on Slackel’s forum for a few days but yet other things may have broken…
    Only my two cents of speculation…

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  7. Oneirosopher:

    What I would do, with the little I know I would install a copy from the iso (either slackel or zenwalk, it doesn’t matter much, you can use each other’s repos and cross install what you like from both) and just not use dist-upgrade from slackware. You may want to ask to have it explained better, I suspect the difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade stems from Debian’s apt. Upgrade just upgrades versions of the same sw, it will not replace ck with elogind. But upgrading slackware software that require elogind to run will break your installation (actually break the sw that don’t have their dependencies met, to be precise).

    Here is the scheme of slackel/ware repos from the messed up installation where I did dist-ugprade. Dist-upgrade should always produce a functional system.

    /etc/slapt-get/ ... repository list (slapt-getrc and slapt-srcrc)

    # Working directory for local storage/cache.
    WORKINGDIR=/var/slapt-get

    Exclude package names and expressions.

    To exclude pre and beta packages, add this to the exclude:

    This is a Slackware repository that only holds dependency info. The actual packages are downloaded from a real Slackware mirror. Read

    http://www.salixos.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_create_a_local_slackware_repository_with_dependency_support

    if you want to use another Slackware mirror and keep the dependency

    information.

    SOURCE=http://www.slackel.gr/repo/x86_64/slackware-current/:OFFICIAL
    SOURCE=http://www.slackel.gr/repo/x86_64/slackware-current/extra/:OFFICIAL
    SOURCE=http://sourceforge.net/projects/slackel/files/repo/x86_64/slackware-current/:OFFICIAL
    SOURCE=http://sourceforge.net/projects/slackel/files/repo/x86_64/slackware-current/extra/:OFFICIAL

    The Salix repository

    SOURCE=http://download.salixos.org/x86_64/14.2/:PREFERRED

    The Slackel current repository

    SOURCE=http://sourceforge.net/projects/slackel/files/repo/x86_64/current/:CUSTOM
    SOURCE=http://www.slackel.gr/repo/x86_64/current/:CUSTOM

    Local repositories

    SOURCE=file:///var/www/packages/:CUSTOM

    Slackel.gr is a mirror for slackware repositories, don’t get confused
    slackware-current and slackware-current/extra (it is like Arch core and extra) followed by official.
    salixos.org preferred is salix binaries
    slackel current/custom is slackel’s binaries

    Now here is the list for slack-src (source based pkg manager)

    BUILDDIR=/usr/src/slapt-src
    PKGEXT=txz
    SOURCE=http://download.salixos.org/slkbuild/14.2/
    SOURCE=http://download.salixos.org/sbo/14.2/
    #SOURCE=https://www.slackbuilds.org/slackbuilds/14.2/

    The last one that is commented out is slackware’s source based community repository, just like Arch’s AUR. The only source-based enabled are the salix repositories.

    If they don’t decide to go independent then whatever packages salix and slackel have that used ck2 will be changed soon to have elogind dependencies. So expect a lengthy transition.
    If you turn slackware off, and just rely on slackel and salix, for now you may be ok, but not for long. Also they are not replacements to slackware’s repositories, they are complimentary. So your slackware originating sw will remain the same as 07-2020, slackel’s and salix sw will update to current, if you block slackware (OFFICIAL).

    I hope it makes sense and I hope I understand it correctly.

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  8. @Oneirosopher

    Really nice to join you! 😉
    And indeed, yet another Greek, here is Outer Space. 🙂

    As someone said, Knights of the old (Linux) Republic, exiled by IBM. 🙂
    And as someone else told: “not everyone which wanders, is lost”.
    (From J.R.R.Tolkien. It refers to Aragorn, and of course to the athour himself, who fought at WW1).
    G.

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  9. Down here in Texas, we have a blues bar owned by a mr.Tolkien, maybe they were relatives. He is black of course, and he likes his musics 😛

    That is all the Tolkiens I know. … down here in Texas. The only war we know is the Alamo.

    Heee haaawww!

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  10. @sysdfree-editor:

    Texas huh? I like Texan people! 🙂
    Many years ago, I was at a computer forum and I was discussing with a fellow Texan.
    We were very frustrated at the time, because computer industries were pretending that all people worldwidth were New Yorkers and they don’t have temperature issues at summertime.
    But the summer is Greece is a hot burning hell (much like the Texan one) and we had serious problem, keeping our PCs on, especially the hot day hours .

    About the war, well it’s the sad reality of how this world works (and probably how it is going to an end).
    As the fellow Christian’s Bible say: “and it is given to him (speaks for the Devil), the authority to take away the Peace, from the face of the Earth”.
    It’s a sad reality, but it is the reality.

    My granda fought at WW2, and during my (mandatory here) military service time (and that was ~25y. ago), I spoke with men (retired at the time), who fought in the Korean frond.
    It was a terrible massacre, and the common belief was, once you enlisted (always mandatory) and were there, you probably never return.

    I know for sure, that many Americans fought (and many died) on these fronds.
    Furthermore, you were battled at the Vietnam war (at which we never went). Anyway, we got our fair share of war, death and distruction, because we got trapped at a deadly and most distractible civil war, just after the end of WW2 (who virtually destroyed, whatever left standing after WW2).

    About Tolkien’s legacy:
    If I’m not wrong, the very first ever, computer games (way before the PC and even home computers era), was rogue-likes about the LOTR (Lord of the Rings) mythos.
    The terminals of those ancient times, were supporting only text mode, and Frodo himself was presenting onscreen (on stunning monochrome text mode of 25 lines/screen), with the glorious graphics, of…ehm…a white dot! 🙂
    G.

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  11. Hello. Just to say a few words and share some information and thoughts about slackel.
    Do not compare slackel with ubuntu, debian, arch etc which have a lot of programmers working for them. And in any case slackel have no intention to be compared with them.
    slackel don’t even have its own repos. Sourceforge free servers are used. It has its own tools developed in house and a lot of apps not included in slackware current tree. It has to follow slackware current tree because cannot maintain an independent slackware repo too. It is a huge job. Also there is one developer, myself, working for slackel.
    Slackel openbox edition is used as my main OS for everyday work. And also every release become public for users may find useful. It is slackware for lazy slackers who want to maintain their system easily using command line or gui tools.
    Even it is based in slackware current tree it is stable because every problem is solved immediately since it is used for personal work every day. There is also the mate edition which i like but i do not use it for personal work. Kde edition has been made for users who asked for it. I do not like it and since kde plasma is getting so heavy in resources i do not know if it is worth the time to do a future edition.
    Installing slackel openbox once and updating the system will always have the latest versions of apps. there is no need to reinstall it. Can say it is a “semi rolling” distribution.

    Salix is based in slackware stable. I am also a salix core team member, responsible for all salix live iso editions and also openbox and kde installation only isos when i have time to create them. They exist in 14.1 but not in 14.2 version of salix.

    I wish you a Happy and Healthy New Year.

    Dimitris

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  12. ΚΑΛΗ ΧΡΟΝΙΑ Δημήτρη και συγχαρητήσια, για το έργο σου!!! 😉
    Γ.

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  13. Hello Dimitri, best wishes to your team as well.

    I know that life is hard basing a distribution on an other for which you have no control or influence on. I know this because I have followed the developments of Artix and Obarun for a long while. And to a lesser extent antix and devuan. Up until now, I thought life is harder for those basing their system on a distro with systemd than one without. I am beginning to rethink this after what I’ve seen with slackware. A distro like arch assumes systemd is there, it is in the base bundle, so it would be redundant to add a dependency on every single piece of sw to systemd and its libraries. It seems with elogind, because the “features” are there, people will add the corresponding abilities to anything they imagine possible. Yes, there is a way to reconfigure and rebuild software, but users on slackware didn’t choose slackware as an alternative to gentoo, and gentoo these days is doing exactly what slackware has done, in reference to elogind.

    Slackel, was nice, and on the one hand I feel lucky I didn’t invest much time in it before and coming to this situation, and unlucky for having missed the experience till Dec 7th. Isn’t it true now that salix, slackel, zenwalk, if updated and upgraded will have elogind in them and ck2 removed? Freezing an earlier version doesn’t work in the long run due to inter-dependencies, and when libraries move ahead the sw based on them have to move ahead too. If security issues arise with sw that have been patched on new versions the user’s choice becomes limited. Not every user can handle on their own reconfiguring packages and building them from source, replacing logind dependencies.

    Someone said pcmanfm is not even slackware built, it is community, and it is built with a hard elogind dependency. In arch pcmanfm works fine without any logind (ck or elogind), in slackware it exits with an error due to lack of logind. This is what I meant by rethinking that being based on a distro without systemd may even be tougher than one with it. Trident made a move from BSD to void-linux, a few months later void made the decision to remove ck and replace it with elogind. Tough luck. Trident doesn’t have a say on the issue and can’t have the luxury of being an autonomous system with such a wide sw base.

    I don’t consider either slackel or zenwalk negatively, but see them as policy victims. Maybe the victimized forks can join forces and make their own common base on specific policy and principles. As I am told this shift to elogind wasn’t really a surprise except for those not paying attention. It had been brewing in testing for nearly a year.

    I am questioning the motives and also proposing that others too, question the motives of such a decision. How do those motives get justified by marketing, and how is this marketing as a value, adopted in the mindsets of people. What is popular is not necessarily right or good. Otherwise grocery stores’ shelves would be full of cocaine, lsd, magic mushrooms, heroin, etc. This is what people want. The shelves with bio-organic produce hasn’t grown that much for decades. If it was all legal, what would you choose to sell in your little grocery store?

    Gnome is produced by a large corporation, Qt is produced by lesser known multinational corporation, and they influence the “market”. I choose openbox a few basic lxde software, like lxterminal, pcmanfm, lxappearance, onconf, and don’t use logind, no dbus, or anything. To have to start using them because some fool decided to enforce it by packaging it, I’d rather say my goodbyes and curses now, than change my ways.

    I say screw the market and do what you think is right, because you and the multinational corporation can not possibly have mutual interests, like ants and elephants don’t.

    And no, we can’t all get along 🙂

    Like

  14. English, ρε! I had to dig this out of spam, it almost ended up with all the russian dates, ukrainian women, chinese pills, and indonesian fashion goods.

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  15. Hello sysdfree-editor,. Best wishes to you also.
    I understand what you are saying about elogind and CK2 and i respect it.
    But upgrading slackel 7.3 which has CK2 to slackel 7.4 with elogind is simple with
    sudo slapt-get -u
    sudo slapt-get –upgrade
    and upgrading the kernel
    sudo install-upgrade-kernel upgrade huge
    Doing the upgrade the CK2 will not removed but at boot time system will be checked for elogind or CK2 and elogind will used instead of CK2.
    To remove CK2 just type sudo spkg -d consoleKit2 since it is not used anymore in slackware.
    Other than this packages can be compiled or create new ones as usual.
    I don’t see any errors in slackel and pcmanfm. I don’t know about arch but pcmanfm in slackel has no hard link to elogind. It is the same package from slackel -7.3 before elogind.
    Deps are “aaa_elflibs|bzip2,aaa_elflibs|libffi,aaa_elflibs|libpng,aaa_elflibs|pcre,aaa_elflibs|xz,aaa_elflibs|zlib,at-spi2-atk,at-spi2-core,atk,brotli,cairo,dbus,dbus-glib,elogind,fontconfig,freetype,fribidi,gdk-pixbuf2,glib2,graphite2,gtk+3,harfbuzz,libX11,libXau,libXcomposite,libXcursor,libXdamage,libXdmcp,libXext,libXfixes,libXi,libXinerama,libXrandr,libXrender,libcap,libepoxy,libexif,libfm,libglvnd,libxcb,libxkbcommon,libxml2,menu-cache,pango,pixman,util-linux,wayland”
    I just upgraded wm-logout so system can reboot, shutdown, logout, suspend and hybernate after elogind is added. Other than this no other changes made to openbox slackel related packages.
    System is running fine as before.
    Also there is no team behind slackel.

    Dimitris

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  16. @ Giorogs: Ευχαριστώ πολύ Γιώργο για τα καλά σου λόγια. Καλή Χρονιά με Υγεία.

    @ sysdfree-editor: About pcmanfm and elogind since dbus (slackware package depends in elogind, elogind also added as dep to pcmanfm because of dbus is also a dep) There is no hard link added for pcmanfm. If i understand well what you mean by hard link.

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  17. Somehow, MS, IBM and the rest of wolves pack, today are able to short-circuit the major distributions and “convincing” them, to adopt systemd, elogind and a lot of their own crapware, in order to suffocate Linux world and transform it to a poor Windoze$ alternative. Tomorrow may be even more catastrophic.

    I have the utmost respect for the individual efforts who trying to bring some sense and creating their own systemd-crap-free flavors. They’re very capable persons and with good intentions.
    Alas, modern Linux is complex enough to leave few hope, that these heroic efforts will come to fruition, in the long run.
    (Although I really hope, that I’m wrong here)!

    My personal opinion, is that what we need is a Linux (a distribution actually), of our own.
    Big distributions, are prone to receive “gifts” from corporations and throw everything in the Trash.
    Yesterday was Debian, today is Slackware, tomorrow who knows? Maybe Gentoo?
    We have to create it from scratch and freely (as in freedom) maintaining it, without external (outside the community) dependencies.
    Or alternatively, choose an independent distribution (not a “based on…” one) and customize it, for us (the community).

    G.

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  18. My personal opinion, is that what we need is a Linux (a distribution actually), of our own.
    Big distributions, are prone to receive “gifts” from corporations and throw everything in the Trash.

    The big distributions are maintained by companies, and those companies looks for profit. Apparently is more profitable to have a standardized set of system services.

    Maybe is fun to play with S6, but for sysadmin knowing to work with systemd will be much simply to work with server hosting RedHat, Debian, Ubuntu or SUSE distributions.

    That’s right, the systemd wide adoption reduced drastically the expenses with training of system administrators. In the best case, an CEO will say smiling to you:
    “Yeah, probably the systemd sucks, but certainly it’s profitable, so I don’t care.”

    Yesterday was Debian, today is Slackware, tomorrow who knows? Maybe Gentoo?

    Gentoo has systemd as alternative since long time. Also they replaced ConsoleKit2 with elogind, on their main solution with OpenRC.

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  19. CEOs problems are not my problems, but when their solutions are forces upon all of us then it becomes our business. Gentoo is a business too, so what is your point. Emphasizing mine? That it is “pure economic self interests are served by the decision makers to promote the use of systemd/elogind”.

    Not everyone knows this as well as you do. So thank you for your emphasis that it is as I say it is.

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  20. It may technically be the wrong term for it. All I know is that without any logind and without dbus running, pcmanfm as packaged by Arch runs without a single warning or error. In slackel it does not run and exits with an error about elogind. Arch’s policy is not to alter upstream packages unless they need some patching to run under their system. So they do minimal alteration. It may be just poor practice by the packager, I don’t know. Maybe he tried to get automounting working without the circus of gvfs/udisks etc.

    I don’t care what they do with their crappy KDE/Gnome filemanagers, terminals, or whatever else they like to connect strange wires to, but screwing with the last few clean pieces of software like what is used on xfce4/lxde is really disappointing. Next thing we know they mess with window managers and xorg-xinit and they will not run without the cacophony of their snitching systemd/subsystems. How in the world some people have the audacity to speak of “secure systems” with all this “intra-communication” going on, I don’t know.

    I did make an installation of Slackel and I was happy with it being configured as I had it. I made the mistake of doing a slapt-get -u/–dist-upgrade and elogind was everywhere when it was done. So I deleted the entire thing out of disappointment.

    I am not blaming Slackel, I don’t see there were too many ways it could have avoided this, and even if there was it is probably too late, without alienating the base of users Slackel has already developed.

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  21. Pingback: #Zenwalk #Slackel #Salix – #Slackware without #systemd ? | systemd-… | Dr. Roy Schestowitz (罗伊)

  22. I did several consequtive installs of zenwalk last summer, about 6 or 7 of them to be sure. I changed what i installed each time i did the installation then fiddled with the desktop after instalation to see what was not working and what was . each time i chose to pick your own packages(expert install) from the entire list of packages. a package i deleted frequently was the zenwalk theme package i beleive it was one of the last menus on the installer, and with that not installed native vanilla xfce was installed without all the fluff crap, which was nice, also i did 2 installs deleting all or most of pulse and choosing to have alsa totally installed and all its packages, consolekit, i chose not to install a bunch of crap from the live iso, at the end of the month, i scrapped the whole thing, which is basically all i did every day for 30 days, because of a few things. Flatpaks are seen as the future of this distro. well this is the first distro it came installed in(which i unticked this box from the install iso by the third round) and i noticed that the entire premise of flatpaks seemed a bit suspect, they had files everywhere, but they were supposed to be essentially app image type programs unto themselves? and they seem unmonitored by the system itself which means it really could be doing anything. I also did not see anything on the zenwalk website stating it was anti systmd, which i thought at the time means, A he hasnt gotten around to changing over to it, B he doesnt care, C he doesnt know . Potentially i could go to the trouble of learning all the basics for this one distro, and it might mean nothing in 6 months when they buckle in and roll over. just my take.

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  23. It is really concerning how many distros are just rolling over to systemd and/or systemd shims ect…and then boom your next update there it all is. I did my first install of linux in 2009, early, i was on ubuntu for a month or so and left for mint . i liked the gnome 2 DE better. it felt like a grown up desktop vs some kiddee desktop for a teeny bopper. I was with mint a long time, i moved to mint DE when mint started pulling in gnome crapware, then after systemd came into mint i left, went to sparky for a while, then systemd came there too, then i moved around trying to find a non systemd version, its as if this huge pool of distros we all had at our disposal, all one had to do to have some fun is go to distrowatch pick out some cool distros do an install on the weekend and try some new stuff see if you could find a new desktop. Now, we have what less than 10 options? If i wanted to be on windows. i would be on windows. I tried my first install of freebsd last summer. completely stumped. moved on. i remember thinking, i really just need to sit down and learn this. because pretty soon, its all thats going to be left. So, few days ago my distro i am on, i ran update so i could do an install, and now my mouse wont click open folders. last time my mouse broke was when some systemd crap came on my sparky build and then i moved shortly after that. So, i went in last night and retried the bsd install. and it was a success. I will need to learn this inside and out. I also DL obarun i will be running a test install with that as well. i just dont think theres going to be much left, and whats going to happen is what always happens when corporate greed wins over moral compass, once they have bought the little distros, they will shut thm down and re-structure them into the borge. apple has been doing it for years. they buy their competetion then they shut the project down and require nondisclosure and retain all the rights of intellectual property. I consider this website a very real, awareness of the impending fate of the linux world, and those that want out can refer here for the ear to the ground information. At the end of the day, if Bsd goes down, i just might not compute. anymore. I will not move to windows 10. and mac is complete crap.( we had macosx for over 5 years. complete crap.) and linux ends up completely and totally absorbed by the borge, there is nothing left I would consider just abstaning from computers at that point. How i would do that i dont know. But a person knows wher their line is.

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  24. Hi Sally,

    What I deduced as the extract of this rage and reaction by those who drove slackware into this development is “Slackware never expressed any commitment to be free of systemd”, and everything else was a cover up excuse of why they “had to” replace consolekit2 with the monstrosity of elogind.

    This is exactly why this “strict” list of distros without systemd and its contents (logind) was created. 4-5 distros at best. From those Obarun shines as a real distro the rest are still alpha-beta projects that may result into a distro some day. Slackware would have been one up until early December, but they would rather get wayland and Plasma working together than prevent the trojan horse to invade their environment. The huge difference is that there are several distros that DO have elogind but don’t use it everywhere and you can have a functional system without a logind at all (ck or otherwise), but not with slackware, not with gentoo, and many others, unless you rebuild everything X related from scratch on your own, which is tremendous work to be done, and you wouldn’t really call it “slackware” or “gentoo” anymore, you would be on your own.

    Even LFS, if you follow their directions they tell you to build things against elogind, if not you are on your own, making your own distro. K1ss-linux says no-elogind here, no systemd, but their primary “community” repository where most X stuff come from is soneone who uses elogind everywhere. So if you are looking for a base console based system to built your own, k1ss-linux is a solution, if you expect further than a 250KB base, you have to make it.

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  25. sysdfree-editor
    I think this option is competely rational given the continual changing of gears, however i lack the experience and know how of base code for something of this magnitude in reference to BYO base. However, I think I can learn FreeBSD. I ordered the printed guide today as well as the file system manual from FreeBSDMall. FreeBSD has been my boogyman for a long time. I just need to get over it. thats the end of it. So, heres what i have found, I did the install of FreeBSD, took me 3 times to get the install done correctly. After the install I installed Lumina Desktop enviornment. 0.Systemd moving parts or requirements. I installed this and left out login manager or DM seat management. so just xorg and Lumina. do i need that anyway, i dont, at least not right now so i TTY in and then manual start x. Took me while to figure out how to get wifii icon on the desktop. I need to figure out file mounting (usb ect). I am not going to install any gnome software on this build. thus i am checking every package and every dependency. so far i havent run into much i have to cross off the list. FF for Freebsd is quite scaled down as req for freebsd software. In 2009 I made myself learn Linux because my windows vista machine went down and I wasnt willing to pay windows for a another license i already paid for on my laptop when i bought it 10 months earlier brand new. Now almost ten years later, i have windows via systemd creep knocking on my door again. I have always thought of win10 as a virus. It behaves like a virus by design. Win 7 was the last Desktop Operating System. Thus I will not be migrating to Win10 of any variety. I maintain an offline install of both Win 7 64 x, and I just finished a fresh install of Winxp 32 few weeks ago. Neither one ever talks to the inernet by any means. I am going to do my obarun install in a few days try that out. want to see if it can run Lumina DE. that would be ideal. Linux marketshare is only about 2.5%. I seriously wonder why microsoft would bother with 2.5% of some over 300 different linux distros. really, why bother, why not just leave them be. FreeBSD was 0.5% last count. Hope it never comes for FreeBSD. I wonder has anyone else noticed the same format of a starting windows 10 version vs linux with systemd IE 3 digit format for both.

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  26. correction, Windows 10 versions are 4 digits, and linux systemd versions are 3 digits. still the fact that when they update they refer to their updates both as version updates. say, 247 vs 20H2 . anyway it stands out.

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  27. What you seem to be clueless about Robin is HOW political FOSS is, as a proposal, and how there is no center. What you are reproducing by https://technophobeconfessions.wordpress.com/2019/09/07/political-linux/ is right wing propaganda.

    Whether you claim this illusion of center or “neutral” with a make shift imaginary right wing, things are still the way they are. You are either pro-capitalist or anti-capitalist. The capitalist fed and manufactured “extreme right”, and “fascism”, are very much pro-capitalist, despite of their pseudo socialist, national-socialist propaganda. Have you heard of populistm? This is exactly the tool the capitalist uses to recruit labor on a pro-capitalist para-military to defend their interests from “the threat”.

    Also, anti-Zionist is not anti-Semitic, just ask thousands of Jewish activists who are anti-Zionist.

    So you article and position is very much right wing, and can either be viewed as either pro-capitalist propaganda or naivity/ignorance… very common these days as people have stopped reading books and read facebook and instagram to develop their ideas.

    Sorry for being a little harsh, I know you have been among the first and most faithful readers to this blog, but I have to return the offending messages sent by you out in public.

    Again, while this offensive article stands, I have little to say about slackel and salix. Both use elogind for anything imagineable. So I couldn’t care if they are alive or dead. Look at the salix repositories and git, nothing committed since who knows when. That spells abandoned. If the same person, or persons are active in Slackel that doesn’t make Salix alive.

    As I said, pcmanfm in Arch linux, a systemd distribution, starts and runs fine, without any logind (elogind or consolekit2) and without dbus. In Slackel it dies with an error, “elogind not present”.

    So to my use it is a failing distribution. It is based on IBM/Slackware

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  28. A new LWN article on Pipewire describes the design of this approach to managing internal streams of audio/video/etc data.
    Like the Linux kernel, implementation will likely require discipline. If some Big Business decides to “leverage” the open-source community, this may involve the same growing pains as Pulseaudio et al.

    Slackware version 15 has been described as “close”; hopefully it won’t take a miracle to get everything in it working at the same time.

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