Hypothetical project and expected feasibility (Manjaro –> Obarun) systemd –> s6

I noticed on Distrowatch’s inquiry statistics that in the past 6mos and less, Manjaro has climbed gradually from #4 to #1.  Mint, ubuntu, and debian are each one click down on the leading in popularity among distro hoppers.  Not that it really matters what distrowatch “reports” or how easy it is to click a distro up, but it is generally accepted as a benchmark of what many people are looking for on a distro.

So what if, Manjaro can boot up with less than half of resources that is currently using, and can be liberated from the plague;  systemd that is, or sysDsease as I like to call it?

There is already a public set of instuctions to transform Manjaro and Arch into Artix.  Originally the task for Artix was for discontinued projects such as Manjaro-OpenRC and Arch-Openrc to move to artix.  And that was pretty straight forward.  Obarun has in its forum potential instruction to transform arch with systemd into Obarun, with s6.  We followed the instructions and it worked.  What if you could transform any Manjaro or Arch installation into OpenRC, Runit, or s6?  What if you can do this to ubuntu and mint with switching its base to AntiX, refracta, figOS, devuan, mX?

Let us say now that people get convinced they should do this and keep converting.  At some point there may be too many people trying it.  All Manjaro, Mint, Ubuntu, have to do is change something little each time so the published conversion may no longer work.  Would it be futile?

We have already grabbed the latest of Manjaro’s installer and we installed it awaiting experimentation.  It is logical that people with 16G or 32G of ram and who knows how may cores,  wouldn’t care whether initial ram use is 140Mb or 440Mb.  But some people have such concerns.  And to those people we dedicate our experiment and its output.  We will report back if we failed or if we came up with a procedure that can achieve such a conversion, that is Manjaro –> to Obarun, or Obarun’s S6 over Manjaro repositories instead of Arch.

We are afraid it might be in vain, and the top 4 when they realize they are missing users/supporters, they may throw in a package that blocks and prevents such a transformations from being effective.

But it would tell us something more about the nature of the oligarchy trying to enforce systemd down peoples’ throats.  A challenge is a challenge.  The easy escape would be, it will never work.  As far as we know it hasn’t been done.

 

PS  little progress, the experiment is almost a success, just a few details that can be reproducible and would readily get networking to work after 2nd boot.  There is resistance though, as Manjaro has TOO many lib32 stuff on desktop fancy and many of them are systemd tied?  The desktop does work though, it is networking services on s6 that seem to get confused.  I don’t want to report success unless a specific reproducible procedure is set, it is simple, and can be published.  Time to look over the Manjaro–>Artix transition procedure, maybe to get ideas.

PS2 Star Date: 20180416   https://sysdfree.wordpress.com/196/  Due to the length of the instructions to transform Manjaro with systemd to Obarun+Manjaro without Systemd and with the “marvel” of s6 go to the link to see the details of the transition.  It is not a one command transformation, although someone can develop a script for it, but it is not spaceship science either, nor does a user need to understand every little detail of the process.  Just copy paste commands and it will work!  Enjoy above all, it is Open and it is for the Free!

17 thoughts on “Hypothetical project and expected feasibility (Manjaro –> Obarun) systemd –> s6

  1. “All Manjaro, Mint, Ubuntu, have to do is change something little each time so the published conversion may no longer work. Would it be futile?”

    i dont think so, i think there are limits to what manjaro, mint, ubuntu can do about it. at a certain point, distro modification would lose points to distro building from the ground up, but a machine to apply 10,000 modifications and one to build a distro with those 10,000 features would not be so different. think of a paper mache cast of modifications, from which the mold is then removed but it retains the shape.

    “But it would tell us something more about the nature of the oligarchy trying to enforce systemd down peoples’ throats.”

    which is partly imaginary. i mean there is no puppetmaster pulling the strings to make debian do every little thing that debian does. at its most sinister, there are little nudges that poke debian in a particular direction. i would not be shocked if this “puppetmaster” proved to be entirely imaginary, though even then its not completely useless, as a metaphor.

    like with the paper mache cast of a distro i just talked about, taking the shape of the distro itself– the shape of a distro could be contorted by the effects of certain things even if theres no actual conspiracy of actors.

    you could take three innocent but poorly designed things, and when theyre combined, they could produce an effect that looked a lot like some horrible group pushing the whole in that direction.

    with systemd, i feel like design is shifting from uncoupled components to a giant, “open source” blob. usually blobs are binary, but systemd has source code.

    i realise that some bad designs are continuing to recreate the blobbiness while others try to put things back the way they were. every time a systemd author and/or debian dev reimplements a function (like hwclock) and abandons maintaining the decoupled component, the blobbiness increases.

    systemd is capable of running on its own as a design process now. you dont need anyone pulling strings at this point to get people to continue blobbifying debian.

    they have a design, theyre following the design, systemd is the puppetmaster now, however it got started. its the new anti-pattern. i just threw this in to cap off my point and give the s***devuansays people something to quote, the real point (if i even had one) is above this paragraph, im sure.

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  2. by the way, i really fing hate the way that wordpress is treating keyboard characters like markdown now. markdown is next to useless if you dont follow a standard and dont publish a key to it. its useless because i think they keep changing it, and theres no way to edit your post if it gets mangled. in this instance it only mangled punctuation– what i was trying to do with it still worked out, but next time i use ampersand g t semicolon, i want the fking greater-than sign i was trying to type, dont i? so whats the bullshit-wordpress-secret-markdown for that?

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  3. I see no comments caught on spam, just some jesus-freaks pretending to be sent from linux.org …!

    Are there paid jobs in debian?
    Who decides who gets paid and who doesn’t?
    Aahhaaa… so there is a hierarchy but people vote on things equally.
    Butt kissing and carrot baiting and who gets their name where constitute classic sociopathology up and down the “org”.

    Comparing a day’s worth of reading, s6 source code and scripts, to “the blob” really shows one what you mean by blob.

    But I think you are right, the blob is out and it is our of control, and will remain a blob and we can hardly expect to escape it. If you are coding and you don’t want to do your research, just plug in to blob to do the rest and just focus on your tiny little bit on the paper-mache and let others worry about the blob.

    If we get to the point to believe that systemd is AI then it is time to go back to the caves with wood and stone and start all over again 🙂

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  4. its important to note that apple has already achieved what debian or redhat or systemd is trying to do. and the solution is very simple– dont buy apple products.

    ultimately, the solution will be that people give up on debian. for that, i point to ubuntu– its not dead, but lots of people have given up on it and even open source types sometimes concur that theyve sold out a bit. (which is funny, from a movement that claims not to be a movement, and is rather dedicated to selling out the way ubuntu has.)

    its the freedom to sell out your users, and thats a big deal to some people. ubuntu isnt dead, but the way people talked about ubuntu years ago is the way people will begin to talk about debian. we already do that. but ubuntu is ahead of debian– they already had that lens thing, they already said “who cares where your minimize/close buttons are? stop whining” and a “real” user-freedom suite would never do that sort of thing. not debian, and certainly not firefox. oh. well, it happens! sometimes people stop doing it right.

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  5. I am writing this from an installation that just hours ago was a new installation of Manjaro.
    It is Manjaro, but it does not have systemd in it, not even systemd-dummies.
    It is Obarun over Manjaro, it starts with S6 and all the Obarun goodies are right here to exploit, and all the fancy desktop work of manjaro and ALL of its repositories are still here!

    You see, Obarun is a fine minimalistic system for above average experts to use, it is not for newbies. Manjaro is an excellent alternative to ubuntu or mint away from the Debian-sociopathology. It is based on arch, it is a modified and funky-ed-up Arch for the masses. But it is a systemd distribution.

    With a multi-tabbed browser, a whole bunch of terminals and file managers open, I look at ram use and it is about the same with what Manjaro was using at boot, same desktop, without anything useful to the user running. That’s about 1/2 GB of Ram on LXDE!

    I will take a break and compile all the transition notes into an article and the world can have it. So much for the freedom to sell out users and force systemd down their throat. Back to the prison cell Manjaro. Considering that they pretended to be a multi-init system capable distro, which it was a lie it wasn’t, and noting that when Artix was announced within 20days they had emptied out their OpenRC related packages as the Manjaro-OpenRC project cimmunity effort was dead, and it is well documented how to go from Manjaro to Artix and use OpenRC, and also Artix now utilizing Runit as an alternative init system, with the addition of this transformation, you can go from Manjaro (systemd only) to 3 different init systems 🙂 S6, OpenRC, and Runit. Of course Arch is the backbone of all this, and even though they are using systemd as their init system they are not abusing their power to make it hard for all derivatives to utilize other init systems over their distro. In other words, Arch is not debian.

    This is system is amazingly fast, and I still I am having a hard time believing it worked. I have to inquire in this speed characteristic. It might be they are using some non-free stuff from Intel to utilize the processor’s capabilities a little better than the open/free sw can

    I wonder if Manjaro owners will hate me more now than the day they banned me from their forum. All I wanted was an official public declaration that from Sept 2017 onwards Manjaro was going to be “officially” a systemd-only distribution. The truth! They denied it because they can’t handle the truth.

    It was exactly the same time that Distrowatch who always listed the init system on the very front and top of the description of each distro, stopped listing the init system (you know, top-left summary descrription). 6months later Distrowatch shows Manjaro being more popular than Mint, Ubuntu, and Debian. 7 months later it appears as you can hack Manjaro to get an init system from other distributions to work. Action — reaction!

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  6. you must have read the manjaro experiments, yes? http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm

    as for the debian pathology, i hope a future post elaborates on what you mean. not that debian has no pathology, but i would like to know what (if any) pathology is specific to debian and debian-related distros.

    since youve mentioned that before, you can hardly say im jumping on the phrase. i think it could be educational– perhaps even for me– either way, im curious and it should be a good read. but dont feel you have to rush, write it when youre able.

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  7. Are there paid jobs in debian?

    Not really.
    I skimmed the 2016 annual report for SPI (software in the public interest). Debian’s entire annual expenditures totalled US$160K ~~ most disbursements were travel-related expenses for attending conferences.

    Butt kissing and carrot baiting and who gets their name where

    (and)

    would like to know what (if any) pathology is specific to debian

    Two examples. The first is in regard to the “live-build” package
    http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/l/live-build/live-build_20170213_changelog

    A group of “plants” undermined the work of, and ultimately stole the package away from Daniel Baumann (former package maintainer). Nigh on 3yrs later, is the “new, improved” version superior (pointed question) or does it amount to a break/fix, dumbed-down, busted ass reimplementation of mature, known-quantity component?

    Second example: ICEWEASEL
    The debian package maintainer oh-so-conveniently got “employed up by” Mozilla… and bye-bye iceweasel. Debian users will take Mozilla’s blob, or do without.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. i am vaguely familiar with the live-build debacle. to me its on the list or slightly-dirty-pool along with moving ifconfig away from user-executable POSSIBLY to help “usher in” ip, (why not just make both user-executable?) avconv over ffmpeg, and similar ploys (at user expense.)

    alternatives? fine. but some of these changes are so arbitrary that they amount to political nonsense.

    im not sure any distro is really immune from that. but the debian-specific examples are irritating to some debian users. id rather ffmpeg, unless theres some trademark issue.

    perhaps someone should fork iceweasel into a browser that doesnt suck and isnt compiled by mozilla anyway. i mean pale moon does that, but im not saying its best example (i am however, posting this from pale moon.)

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  9. incidentally, i forgot how remarkable the whole live-build-ng debacle was, and what a bunch of unapologetic pricks the debian team was to people who had worked for them for 10 years. it wasnt slightly dirty at all, it was a f—ing dirty. by the way i lost a comment earlier to an autofilter (speculation on my part, partly confirmed) hence its “f—ing” now.

    https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=804315 <- wow!

    this is a GREAT reason not to be a debian developer.

    a bit like the music industry, they treat the artists (devs) with as much disdain as the fans (users.)

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  10. This conversation about Debian is intriguing (full of intrigue-a) but it applies to the Debian world, not arch-manjaro-obarun-artix. I think they are quite different in nature. So what do you guys and gals say, should we move it to an appropriate thread/topic where it may even get better attention?

    I admit I didn’t know the inside story about iceweasel and icedove, and it was for me an alarm light of the engine failing, time to eject!

    While talking about stuff with a developer once, he said he got sick and tired of working and his work having to have someone else’s name on it, as it took for ever to get Debian tenure. One had to be a really obedient puppy and slave work for the masters. He moved his show over to arch, proved his work was worthy, and was left alone to publish his work as his own. Who has more packages now, debian or arch? Does the number really matter?

    One package keeper that seemed to be both doing great work and not subscribing to the gangster sociopathology was the one working for xorriso. His manuals also were readable by common mortals even though the subject is a bit of space technology. Before one engages into the science of how stuff is written in and read from any medium we think it is as simple as writing on a piece of paper. Thanks to this guy explaining stuff some of us lay-people got to learn a thing or two about formats and mediums. But then I wonder how long would a healthy person last in an environment like this. What tactics will he use later to defend the temple and its intrigue. There may be more that I don’t know about but the question is for how long. How long can you be kept in a psychiatric ward and be drugged up before you lose it and become what they have isolated you for? I think Ulrike died when she felt she was being changed.

    A sick world is a flower bed for sick organizations that eventually infect the individuals within them and possibly those in close proximity. Can the children of a CIA operative be healthy? Was he himself a sick child that grew up and joined the “evil doers”? 😉

    Artix needs our help, their main server has failed, and the 4 mirrors were set to pick copies up from that failed server. They need a reliable fast server with about 30GB of space and adequate bandwidth. They are doing great work but don’t have 6 figure travel expenses budgets or time to attend “pseudo conferences” as non-payment. Nor do they get 5 figure machinery donated from the “industry” to play with. If any of you out there know of a corner that can be assigned some repository duty it would be for a good cause.

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  11. I had not read the Manjaro experiments, it has been a while since they were published, they seem interesting. But Manjaro seems to have sold partially out since that time as well. Remember Mint Rosa, Ubuntu lxle, and alternative init systems? Manjaro portrayed itself as a distribution of init choice.
    BULL CRAP!!! If it wasn’t for Artoo trying to get Manjaro to work with OpenRC, and he managed, and he was overlooked as he wasn’t there, Manjaro has been a systemd based system for a while. Since 9.2017 Manjaro “silently” without much publishity (controlled??) they removed eudev and openrc and all associated packages from their repository so nobody would dare try it on their own. Debian DOES have OpenRC on its repositories, and sysvinit helpers. etc. Manjaro does NOT!
    The people IN manjaro who were satisfied with using systemd never paid attention to this detail. The people who used Manjaro-OpenRC were forced to migrate to Artix within days and depart Manjaro. The rest of the world did not know or notice any change. So now, Manjaro users have TWO ways out. And that is a good thing when you take the world Free literally and philosophically. Only bosses need fences for their turf, we don’t need no stinky fences!

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  12. I found it (and a copy of it) in the trash, that’s where wordpress puts it, and since there was much of spam that had been transferred to trash I didn’t notice your comment. It is some child-safe filter that catches “it”.

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  13. all fair enough, including the part about staying with the topic– i must point out that i do not have server resources or much to offer artix right now– and also that it does not do what i need from a distro at this time.

    in the broader sense, i always think its good when people are sincerely working against systemd. im happy to discuss artix in that context. i dont just choose a distro based on whether it stands up to systemd or not– thats a requirement, there are others. i could write about those, but it would only be relevant to me and people with the same needs. totally subjective in other words.

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  14. found a great quote today, from someone named “lady fitzgerald”: “The more bells and whistles on something, the more there is to break.” thought of debian, systemd, so many things. not so much a revelation, as a very artful and simple way to phrase something we know.

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  15. It is the nature of language and communication, with such a poor tool to communicate, that two or more people may not disagree but may sound that they are advocating contrary things.
    Since crew-“persons” may occasionally walk on airplane wings, why don’t they put guardrails and a ladder on them? And why isn’t the cargo compartment pressurized and heated adequately? And why don’t they have parachutes under each seat of a passenger plane and a back door where they can all jump off when there is trouble? Because that wouldn’t be the “cheapest”, quickest, safest, way to move people around the world. Whoever makes the decision on those variables must also sell those decisions to a market made of non-experts.

    Should it be elitism to brag about how the people who know most about systems are the most extreme minimalists in how they structure them, while the people who know least about them, tend to load them up with complexities. That later group appreciates systemd very much, as they also appreciate their ABS, antispin, injection and emissions system, on their car. Most race car drivers can beat stopping times and distances over any ABS system without an ABS system (same vehicle otherwise).

    Marketing and its inherent competitiveness has affected “even open and free” systems. Minimalists don’t get 6 figure travel budgets (as someone told us in another discussion here).and minimalism does not sell. Should we alienate the base of users who do not appreciate minimalism, or understand it, by overlooking what it is they like and prefer? That would be an elitism on our side. The goal is to share what we all know not to barricade ourselves behind the private property of knowledge. This whole monstrosity we call “modern society” is founded on the hierarchy of protected experts and uninvolved lay-“persons”. Self serving exprerts who don’t share their knowledge but “have an attitude” against those who lack expertise, are no friends of ours. Remember this blog/site is about users who have not made the leap in coding yet, and by users and for users, isolated by the stuck-up attitudes of “developers”.

    Yes, I know that the more bells and whistles you attach the more the bells and whistles that will fall off and not work. On the third day of running Manjaro with an S6 init system we are nearing the point of abandoning the project, as some bells and whistles just don’t seem to work so well when used on a racy subsystem, instead of the sys-D-sease curse. The manjaro settings panel, where you can set users/groups, kernels, locales, hw, etc. works fine! It may be the most handy little bell and whistle that has come from Manjaro!

    I remember years ago, when I had not used #passwd to set a password where the gui wouldn’t let me set a minimal insecure passwd, I thought, wait a damn minute! How can the installer accept a two letter passwd for root and user and this stupid gui will not allow it and force me to have longer complex passwords? So I’ve never used a gui again, not for that particular use. Is this a case of inherent elitism on the part of the gui developer? He/she can have a one letter password but it is unsafe for users to have anything smaller than what she/he decided to impose on them? Yes, because he/she knows what she/he is doing. And it is usually a he that has such a problem, but let’s pretend we are politically correct and not into man-bashing here. And paternalism and patriarchy is not an isolated privilege of men, women can equally be fascists if they are handed the instrument of torture.

    Personally, I will not give up my friendly minimalist openbox for some of those more extreme minimalistic set ups, like Icewm, i3, awesome, jwm, fluxbox, etc. I can sleep on the floor with a sleeping bag but I choose to go to a real bed with a real fluffy comforter and a proper pillow. I don’t necessarily speak lowly of those who have heated waterbeds and what have you. Actually I’ve spent so many years sleeping on an old couch that I learned to appreciate a bed.

    The aim of this project was to help and provide support for those who use bells and whistles to be emancipated that they can take a step towards “freedom” as they are not really sure whether they are out of the prison shell or not yet. Leaving windows and macos for some Cinnamon or Plasma desktop is not all the way out yet. If you look around devuan, antix, artix, obarun, gentoo, void, forums you don’t see too many people using bells and whistles. People have come to think that bells and whistles only work on systemd based systems, and it is bot necessarily true. Many use debian no-X, and some use plasma with runit, or S6, or Openrc.

    But, you see what I mean about agreeing and saying opposite things? If you disagree please explain, because I believe we agree.

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  16. “Should we alienate the base of users who do not appreciate minimalism, or understand it,”

    it depends.

    if we wish to only solve the problems of people more like us, we dont have to cater to anybody.

    if we want people that have different problems they need solved, but they like bloat, perhaps there is some minimalistic way to give them the bloat they want. obviously im not kidding. if we wish to do that (and i suspect that some of us do) we should understand it as best we can

    “The goal is to share what we all know not to barricade ourselves behind the private property of knowledge.”

    i agree.

    “Self serving exprerts who don’t share their knowledge but “have an attitude” against those who lack expertise, are no friends of ours.”

    cant stand them.

    “Remember this blog/site is about users who have not made the leap in coding yet, and by users and for users,”

    you know i designed a programming language that ive taught to people while they were drunk in a bar, right? i designed it for the ones that people have tried to teach for years, and just didnt get it.

    when i learned coding, it was a step– not a leap. so instead of trying to get people to make the leap, or build a billion dollar bridge across the gap, i figure why not just MOVE THE TWO SIDES closer together? thats a lot easier.

    i think the thing about bells and whistles isnt absolute. bells and whistles are fun. TOO MANY and you have a system that never works, eh?

    “And paternalism and patriarchy is not an isolated privilege of men, women can equally be fascists”

    no, hillary wasnt condescending AT ALL when she said that women were “the real victims” of war.

    “Personally, I will not give up my friendly minimalist openbox”

    no reason you should. i can tell you, its not that bad to install.

    “If you look around devuan, antix, artix, obarun, gentoo, void, forums you don’t see too many people using bells and whistles. People have come to think that bells and whistles only work on systemd based systems, and it is bot necessarily true.”

    i loved kde 3.5 when it wasnt ancient. i even liked gnome 2, in a way. i install new versions a lot, so a streamlined iso is nice to have. adding bloat is easy and im not against people doing that if they want to, i dislike the way it finds its way into everything, but as long as its easy to remove, whatever, fine. its rarely easy BUT IT CAN BE, so lets be fair about the matter. i mean you are already, but lets all be fair about it.

    If you disagree please explain, because I believe we agree.

    on this? yes, i believe so.

    to answer your question broadly: the surest sign of free software is that it can be used by so many people for so many things.

    can gentoo? yes… in a way. but i cant get much done if i use it. so what would gentoo be like if it were friendlier?

    more gui buttons? probably not. options that were easier to understand and use? very possibly.

    i wrote fsr as thing about why im against “clicky things” (guis) in general, and i think youd find it interesting. short version: im not really against guis. but when i am, there are other reasons that matter, not so much “guis are for stupids.” i am using a gui right now.

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