My own experience with devuan (by codeinfig)

 

“i disapprove of your text editor, but i will defend to the death your right to use it.” — voltaire

Critics and fans should be able to agree that devuan is an effort built on grandiose claims. the reason is simple: the claims made are grandiose. if devuan wanted to deny that, all that had to do is make more modest claims.

If you make grandiose claims, you are also going to create critics who love to point out how you fall short. you might just be ambitious enough to live up to them even partway– and in my opinion, devuan is not made entirely of claims. so far, it delivers.

I could side with the critics and complain that its too slow to support ascii, but my timing tends to be off.

When I’m about to tell the world that devuan is a scam after all (i never once thought it was built on lies, at worst exaggeration) they go and release the very thing ive been complaining was taking forever. ok, it still took too long– but i cant say it will never come.

Just to be sneaky, they sometimes release these updates a couple days *before* i complain they will never do so, meaning i should always check 5 minutes before i make these claims. ahem. if i dont, its because im perpetually tired of dealing with many of these people. yep, thats my excuse.

Now i dont get many friends with this attitude– fanboys would call me a traitor (or a critic) and critics would call me a fanboy. thats my reward for trying to look for the truth from as many angles as possible– it means im not in a camp, and thus have nowhere to camp.

That doesnt mean i dont know anyone on the inside. i dont have the privilege of talking to jaromil very often, but i believe he has always stood for the actual things he claims to. in other words, hes not a fake. you can read more about him at his wikipedia page, which was spitefully voted off the wiki island by as retribution for his co-founding of devuan and criticism of debian:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130426023712/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaromil

So far, i might sound like a fanboy trying to cleverly disguise his love as a critique. so for now, i will skip over the list of important things i believe devuan is doing right, note that i still use a devuan derivative (but the person running the devuan forum doesnt believe me, and i will talk about that!) and i will get on with the criticism.

i do want to say before it gets nasty, that there are people involved with devuan that i deeply admire, thank, and am grateful to. and devuan is very lucky to have those people on their team.

now–

One of the accusations towards devuan is that its a secret cabal of pimply losers that either dont know what theyre doing or are actually lying to people. i mean thats sort of a cliche textbook accusation you can make whenever theres a disconnect between devs and users, which there usually is.

Its sort of like that old gilbert gottfried joke: “DID MARK SHUTTLEWORTH RAPE AND KILL A GIRL IN 1997?” if you ask people this ridiculous question over and over, people will start thinking that it might have happened.

Its just a string of words, it wasnt even “mark shuttleworth” in the original joke, it was originally aimed (entirely as a joke) at bob saget: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beck_v._Eiland-Hall

but i digress.

Whats my actual complaint here? it is actually quite difficult to climb the mountain of nonsense to get the devuan summit. if i didnt know people closer to it (i cant tell you their names, i took a secret oath) id swear they were all in a tower in switzerland somewhere– with tunnels and handshakes and front organisations.

Thats a decision made by the “veteran unix admins” and it obviously suits their purposes. but i am not directly bothered by this. anything that could ever reassure anyone about systemd surely applies to devuan as well– from the source repos to reverse engineering the binaries– folks, there are major security flaws in the source code that have gone unnoticed and unpatched for a decade, and now our cpus are vulnerable too.

If theres a cabal, we will find them. no, my actual complaint is that instead of dealing with the vua directly, i *and friends of mine who have not sworn by blood, and thus dont enjoy some of the privileges that i do* am generally expected to climb this mountain of bullshit anyway.

And the mountain is made of overzealous volunteers, some of whom are people i like, and many of whom are people i cannot begin to tolerate.

So if you dislike the “community presentation” end of devuan, im right there with you! its crap.

One of my informants however, has explained to me that people continue to find refuge in devuans community. what do i make of that? hopeless optimism?

I find hope in this, because if enough people find their way into devuan, this mountain of friendly faces and oversized egos is sure to learn some manners.

It doesnt have them yet– i grew sick of irc at least a year ago, discourse is a lump of the most wretched cpu-sucking nonsense ive ever dealt with (using it is like clippy and windows 8 and wordpress decided to vomit 2 gb of javascript into your browser, but its AWESOME because you can configure it to do anything– im told) and the devuan “galaxy” forum is worse than both of these options.

The forum is run by an aging ego-maniac who makes herself the arbiter not only of who gets to participate (i mean lots of forum admins do, eh? but none moreso in my experience) but indeed, the arbiter of all facts technical and trivial, despite not being able to verify (or discover) any of these facts herself without asking someone else.

To wit, it is not so uphill to get people to accept that a derivative-of-a-derivative of devuan is also (by definition) a devuan derviative– just as much as an ubuntu derivative is debian-based.

But the loophole is that if there is even a fraction of components from anywhere else (such as a handful of files from puppy) that its “puppy, not devuan” and therefore should not be listed.

This is an extremely spiteful, extremely arbitrary, extremely arrogant person who cannot be reasoned with under any circumstances. basically she is there to torture people with her nonsense and then reprimand them for not taking her shit. ive complained to her about her abuse of other people in the community, which she shrugged off as “we are friends and i can talk to him however i want.”

Yeah, i guess.

So if thats what you want from a community, go and support devuan. but i have a better idea, because you see devuan is debian 2.0 after all, and debian has spawned many communities and subcommunities over the years.

Start your own devuan community. it sounds like nonsense, because how can you run a forum without any serious connection to the people making the thing– but remember, the vua is on a mountian somewhere, hiding from the plebs. i cant entirely blame them, though i sincerely hoped they would drop that act by year 3 (ive used devuan that long– unless you ask on the devuan galaxy forum.)

Yes, march 2015, and ive used it since then. i also absolutely hated the “betas” that came out of devuan, but i figured “heck, theyre betas.”

I used the very first “pre-release” iso and for my own uses, it was better than the betas.

The best stuff devuan does is in their repos and infrastructure, and i dont care if they get it together with their isos so long as people are happy to take them and put them together into something usable.

So far, the derivatives are better than the thing theyre made from. i should get around to checking if thats still true– but to be honest, im past the point of caring.

Does that sound like a hardcore fanboy to you? if so, i cant change it.

This is still worth putting in context though. despite the present hopelessness of the community (i wouldnt send anyone i know there! thats the problem) there are still some good people in it.

Despite the present hopelessness, theyre still making progress and things are still happening (new users) that threaten to ultimately topple the shit-surprise that is here-and-there in devuans community.

And perhaps i really do believe, (i would hate that) but i still think debians worse. i wasnt posting emails to that horror show but i was watching with great interest. im not going back to debian, and im probably not going back to devuan either.

But do i think devuan will ever live up to their claims?

I dont know, i wont say “no” quite yet. in a way, i dont think it matters really? but i think theres a lot of potential, if we can just “drain the swamp.” (yeah, im trolling a little. theyve earned it.)

I also gave money to devuan, but that was a one-time thing. i absolutely belive they contribute something valuable, but i think of greater value is what other people upstream from me (and downstream from devuan) do with it. if you want to be a believer– skip devuan. watch what others are doing with it– unless its a forum!

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/81432502/nobody-can-be-told-what-devuan-is-seeing-it-for-yourself-wont-always-help-either.jpg

Devuan is a three-year-old fork of debian– because there is no spoon.

But seriously, deuvan isnt an organisation (i mean, not in any way that matters to me at all.) to me personally, its just a factory that makes distro components from other distro components– and the components arent bad, and many of the people who use those components (myself included) arent all bad either.

Its the glorified middle-managers who are making themselves gateways to devuan that are the most trouble, honestly. and you dont need them, you just need to find the right people to talk to and avoid the heck out of the rest. if you think thats a little sad, i agree.

23 thoughts on “My own experience with devuan (by codeinfig)

  1. Thanks for the update, but I wonder whether the secret handshakers and oathtaker and bakers are snowjobbing YOU too? Where can we find indications of the “progress” and “infrastructure” you mentioned? Not in the repo. Four years running, and devuan has managed to package what(?) a hundred or so items: pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/

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  2. Ok sorry if that sounded rude. For the record yes I am aware of “projects” listed here

    dev1galaxy.org/viewforum.php?id=18

    and yes I agree with what you described about the devuan forum (overmoderated, over koolaided)

    The shitgames aren’t just in the forums though. Several times I have noticed bug reports and feature request tickets being deleted from the devuan git. Even though not MY issues I had many bookmarks set so that I could return and check on progress or discover solved. Wow. Just sweep the inconvenient stuff under the rug and live in denial: every thing is wonderful peachy. Well that kills my trust for my hope for devuan.

    git.devuan.org/webdev/*/issues

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  3. Wow. Just sweep the inconvenient stuff under the rug and live in denial: every thing is wonderful peachy. Well that kills my trust for my hope for devuan.

    I think this is a bottom line description of the devuan-o-pathology.
    I have a hunch that within the project some big-wig euro-academics were involved as signatures, and have used it as a vehicle to seek research funding from some euro-academic-tech-source. They may be using this to advance their causes, have slave labor from grad-students pursuing their degrees, and the work keeps being slow and sloppy. Meanwhile they have to create a positive outward picture of it so the funding stream stays alive. This would explain much of the pathogeny we have encountered. Too many people involved, very few doing actual work, and much of it incompatible, like trying to piece together a quilt of difference. Still much of the debian way is alive in it, pkgs that fly elsewhere are dragging their feet here being overly dependent and overly flagged to work “everywhere” with little control to the sys-admin to customize and fit things.

    Antix on the other hand, a similar approach to “the problem”, has tons of custom packages (their own) on top of debian, and the work never stops and so is the attention to any little problem a user may complain about. In antix (and artix, and obarun, and void) when there is a problem somewhere it is acknowledged and fixed. No energy wasted in defending the “marvel” that there is no problem, while secretly trying to patch it so the rest of the team doesn’t realize someone has screwed something up.
    I’d rather work with a distribution that works and communicates than one that is more stable and will not accept any criticism or admission of a problem. So even if (??if!!!!) devuan was to work well I would still would want nothing to do with it.

    Then there is infrastructure. Debian has been trying to both change and maintain its high status at the same time in recent years that “IT” is not “as debian as” it used to be. Too many people trying to apply too many changes too fast (to catch up with other distros) that has made debian into a bomb about to explode. It is like a slow moving pumped up blob about to self-destruct. It is like a slow old person that due to the systemd infusion has developed cancer and it is beyond control.

    Arch has systemd on it. Install that minimal arch once as a test, see how fast you boot, and what options you are given once you have booted. Then you realize what can never be right with anything based on debian any more. Then get yourself an iso of wheezy, try that installation. That’s what I am talking about.

    Devuan is one mesh developing on top of another.

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  4. i didnt want you to think i was ignoring comments to my own post, i wasnt aware this had posted yet.

    the git deletions i was not aware of and i dont deny theyre a bit troubling. the repos are awfully slow-moving, even if devuan is still going forward it certainly doesnt seem to have accelerated.

    i have no more faith in antix than you do in devuan, but that said i cant think of a better example (than antix) of how “debian can go on without systemd and without devuan too.)

    i once donated to devuan, i am still willing to donate to distros that are based on it.

    even if i considered myself a devuan fan (i probably am, though it feels like too strong of a word) i think they will benefit more from than stick than the carrot at this point– certainly in terms of pushing forward with the distro; keep doing what youre doing. i still think denis roio (jaromil) is the on the level. if devuan is shady, then hes getting duped. i could be wrong about anything. i mean, it happens.

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  5. “I wonder whether the secret handshakers and oathtaker and bakers are snowjobbing YOU too?”

    its a fair question really. all i can tell you is that since i updated debian 8 before it went stable and systemd came in unannounced (if i install a new display manager, it offers to switch from a dialog. if a new default init is introduced, i dont even get a message with less. but if new certs are installed, it stops installing until i acknowledge it. really, what?) ive looked at every option i could find, including freebsd. ive tried antix too.

    from my personal experience for the past few years– devuan has given me everything i wanted from debian, minus a good iso. (which i get from refracta.) my first encounter was with the pre-release valentine iso, it just worked. then the beta isos later were a bit shoddy by comparison.

    really ive been pretty unimpressed with their install isos time after time. i also have the resources to repair them, though that only helps me and users downstream that trust my work. fsmithred is the best technician at upgrading devuan to something usable, but he wont take all the credit, people help him. and they had enough sense to put him in charge of live, more or less. good, because if you have no live iso then why even compare yourself to debian?

    as far as the repos, ive stayed with jessie for quite some time– it works, now for ascii. and every time im like “no more, this is stupid” there it is, the new “stable/release” whatever, which i was just about to say would never happen. no ones telling me this– i just check and there it is. but if its not there, then its not there.

    we can talk about the problems i had with antix but its not why i showed up– antix has different goals than mine, and while i can fix up devuan i cant fix antix without more work. because they dont care to separate their free stuff from non free stuff in a way that makes my job as easy as refracta or devuan or even debian does.

    to turn antix into the same thing i try to make out of devuan-based refracta, id have to basically reverse-engineer how they make debian work without systemd. and while im hardly saying that keep that under lock and key (if you want to say theyre more open about their processes than devuan– i totally agree) it probably comes down to “ignore antix and just use a few of their packages.” as for your assessment of debian, i cant argue. i cant even stand to visit their mailing lists for information.

    my own goal is a lightweight debian-like distro with a lighter de/wm than xfce (xfce isnt bad, its just more than i need.) refracta makes that work, antix throws in stuff i insist on fixing up further. antix proves that you can do what devuan does (without devuan) but devuan replies “we are making it easier to sustain long term.” i still believe thats possibly true, but i also think you know what– the whole thing is 3 years old now. time to be more open about what youre doing, knock off this back-room nonsense. even if its not, it acts like it is. and i cant get most answers any easier than you can. and theyre goofs if they think it isnt costing them money to do it this way– theyre scaring off all sponsors, far more than the things we say.

    i trust fsmithred, hes one of the few distro devs ive ever met in person. he trusts jaromil, i really think we can trust both of them. everyone else? i dont know. not much to go on but a lot of nonsense. the author of gnuinos (devuan based) seems legit too. and most of the people involved with refracta? caustic perhaps, not shady or impossible to talk to, just not terribly friendly. if youre right, youll be proven right eventually, dont worry.

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  6. Check to see if the issues you bookmarked were moved to bugs.devuan.org. The issues at git proved to be too fragmented and were often ignored, so they were moved to a proper bug tracking system. I believe that some may have been deleted instead of moved, most likely because they were no longer relevant.

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  7. i think shes being sarcastic, but personally i will take the compliment.

    its fine with me if someone mistakes me for the author/coordinator/moderator of this blog, but our approaches are different.

    in fact, ive thought about making a post that talks about which claims made on this blog are more likely accurate, and which ones i think are easy to disprove. this blog and i have talked about devuan in both shining terms and disappointed ones– so the comparison isnt as unreasonable as it is (a bit) inaccurate. and i dont want to take credit for a blog i did no more work on than 2 posts and a handful of comments– it wouldnt be fair. but thanks.

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  8. You are repeating yourself my dear!
    Anytime someone appeared to agreeing with the criticism all you did was to try to reduce it as being the same person. It is OBVIOUS that although codeinfig and I may share some opinions but we write differently and we disagree in certain details. Although codeinfig is underplaying this “troll” note, YOU KNOW very well who codeinfig is and unfortunately I only found out recently, from comments here, and some third party pointing out who he may be. I wish I knew quarter of what he knows to base my criticism on.

    But, to get back to the issue, whether I’d be the same person with codeinfig or not, is absolutely irrelevant to the content of the criticism that appears here and was forcefully silenced within the devuan “forum”. Points of criticism are still valid no matter who or how many voice them, and until there is substantial counter argument to invalidate them.

    What do you have to submit here? NOTHING! You are just a troll without substance.

    Should we talk about Devuan financials, what sources of funding Devuan has for “the little they have contributed”, compared to so many other brilliant distros who are self financed in time and money (often begging for donations to keep up a webpage server, a wiki, and a forum), and do not have this corporate image Devuan has developed based on “nothing”? Would someone from Dyne corporation like to enlighten us? I’d be happy to publish such information if it is supplied.

    Again, and again, I’d be happy to apologize and recall all my criticism if evidence is presented on how wrong and out of place has it been.

    Now Go Linux, Go, literally, and next time bring some valid counter-arguments instead of your gossip stupidity!

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  9. i think shes being sarcastic

    what makes you think it is a “she” …..?
    I am not trying to be sexist or accuse you of sexism, but I wonder why did both of our minds go directly to the same person, maybe? “Dunno!”

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  10. I wonder why did both of our minds go directly to the same person, maybe?

    yes, i was not implicating a gender but an individual that has one. the single most likely and obvious candidate happens to be female– i cant guess who else would care enough to comment, but TECHNICALLY it could be anyone capable of operating a keyboard (or compatible technology.)

    and it doesnt really matter who made the comment– i posted my reply as i did for fun. my intentions are serious for the most part. my methods? hey, whats the point if you cant enjoy yourself sometimes? 🙂 i meant everything i said.

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  11. Yearly financial reports are published here: https://devuan.org/os/donate and BTW, very easy to find with a little effort. 2017 report coming soon. Undoubtedly, these documents (prepared for non-profit status) will not satisfy your curiosity.

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  12. i have never known golinux to be anyone except “golinux,” but i can tell you who i am–

    i am a person who has spoken with richard stallman of fsf, lawrence lessig of creative commons, kat walsh of wikipedia (in person) and buzz aldrin (in person) as well as countless free software / open source people.

    in 2002 i purchased red hat (6?) at wal mart for about $30. i had more luck with mandrake which i purchased for less. in 2005 i had more luck with ubuntu, mailed to me free of charge. by 2007 i removed my last windows partition, and since then i have favoured debian-based distros (from trisquel to gnewsense to debian to refracta.)

    in 2013 i began developing a curriculum for refurbishing computers with debian, which i considered stable and reliable. in 2014 my installation of debian-testing (i also had a number of debian stable installations) started behaving strangely, rc.local (which was set executable) was no longer running on startup. it turned out that running updates had quietly replaced the entire init system. i understand the difference between testing and stable, but thats absurd–

    updates tell me every time the certs are updated, they let me know about minor things like timezone updates and offer to select things like display managers but a new init system quietly installs itself and disables the current one without a word– following that trail, i realised that i couldnt count on debian ever again.

    i tried every possible replacement of debian i could, and followed every bit of dissent and troubleshooting i could find, and experimented with solutions on my array of debian installations. in every instance since march 2015, switching to devuan repos (which should work on https! fixing this should be a priority) or installing some flavour of devuan fixed my problems. although the http thing is really inexcusable. its been three years now.

    since i could no longer give away used computers with debian 7 installations and simply download the source dvd (and copy it to the hard drive) i had extra time that would otherwise be spent distributing debian machines free of charge. (anyone that said everyday people couldnt use debian 7, it was easier for users with no gnu/linux experience than windows 8.)

    with that spare time, i developed fig (covered in distrowatch #693) and more than a year later, fig os (a fully-automated remaster script that is a mix of bash and fig and a little python. purely for my own convenience. run the script, it creates an .iso mostly from refracta. golinux didnt get the concept and has since told everyone its puppy linux. shes only about 0.5% right and thats about as right as she wants to be, if she thinks its right.)

    february 2015 was the beginning of the fig programming language, making it about one or two weeks older than the first devuan install .iso (directly from jaromil.) it was also the topic of the last-ever article submitted by robert storey of distrowatch, who encouraged me to write it and was extremely helpful– if 1% of the devuan or debian community was that helpful and friendly, we would live in a better world. instead, i have to wade knee-deep through people like golinux, nasty middle-manager gatekeepers and egomaniacs who build their legacies on colour-schemes, dishonesty and abuse of users and potential contributors.

    and i think the solution is to revamp/alter/possibly dismantle the entire concept of gnu/linux distributions. devuan is just one reason, so are debian and red hat, and most of the distros ive tried.

    thats who i am. though i can only be flattered by comparison to someone who pulls in tens of thousands of visitors to a blog– i would love to have a readership that size.

    as to whether distros should be “considered harmful” i read today that debian may have deprecated ifconfig by moving it out of any folders than are in the users $PATH variable– unless they are root. this happened during or after potato, and ip is put in the user path instead.

    while there could be plenty of reason to deprecate ifconfig, this is the only time debian has made decisions like this– avconv, systemd, and soon the deprecation of their own menus (although i cant really fault them for abandoning their own menu, theyre likely only doing it to add to the lock-in around freedesktop.org, and i find that appalling.) debian is also deprecating hwclock– DISTROS HAVE TOO MUCH POWER. they are one of the most monopoly-like forces in the free software world, and thats a fixable problem.

    golinux seems to think she knows what everyone deserves, and is one of the best examples of arrogance and message control ive met in all the years ive worked with gnu/linux. she even pretended to be a friend for a while. do i doubt her sincerity? her sincerity isnt worth talking about, i fully doubt her integrity.

    she clearly thinks that i dont deserve devuan, since she has stood directly in my way regarding it while pretending to be helpful. if i had trusted her as little from day 1 as i did months later, i would not have wasted my time with her.

    however, she thinks i deserve this community of critics– and while i think i can correct a number of misconceptions/non-facts about devuan, i also believe that some of the critiques are very possibly valid and DEFINITELY worth looking into more.

    devuans had three years of being a newborn distro. it can stop acting now like it needs only friends. devuan needs critics. very badly. it will never be the mainstream distro it claims to be without them.

    and given that devuan was born of die-hard debian critics that were silenced and pooh-poohed by debian fanboys, the last thing devuan needs to do is treat devuans critics and concerns about devuan the same way.

    i may not deserve devuan, but *no one* deserves to have to deal with golinux. of course if they hate themselves, they should have the choice– but like systemd, it should never be mandatory.

    the most recent update (minor) to fig was three months ago, to the day. as fig itself is now 3 years old, there should be no question who i am– i am the author of fig and fig os, obviously. it may be possible for someone to impersonate me, but its not worth the trouble for me to impersonate anybody else. i happen to know for a fact that fungal is not the author of fig os, but if i welcomed him to fork it (i wouldnt bother, since he doesnt like devuan enough) i would only mean it in the nicest way possible.

    i find it irritating though, how gatekeepers and middle-manager extraordinaires of minor devuan fame like to treat me the same way that systemd critics were treated on the debian mailing lists. not only do i deserve better than that– practically everyone does.

    if you support monopolies, you will marginalise the user again and again. devuan needs to be reminded (perhaps constantly) which side it claims it is on.

    developers are not gods, and they do not require our homage. they have not earned any special kind of respect that they are not willing to offer in turn. if they offer it, however– they deserve it in turn.

    the actions of debian since 2014 are nothing but disrespectful. i find golinux equally appalling and anti-user. but she would not have such a foothold if the distro concept itself didnt offer her one. there will be a time soon enough to revisit that whole concept– it used to be essential, i dont think it is anymore. of course, every enterprise needs opensuse (what? thats a joke, ive never used it.)

    devuan is a good project, or its a scam. im willing to explore both possibilities– arch isnt my bag, nor is antix. but putting people like golinux in charge of too much changes the entire nature of devuan to outsiders– some wont care, but its ultimately up to golinux to decide. she cant be trusted with that, its foolish to put her in charge of that, and whether she abuses her power or not (its certainly devuans right to decide) she is using it stupidly– the costs of which can be denied, but they exist either way. i happen to think it has enough problems without her help.

    who cares, though? if i dont like it, fork it. im fine with that– fork devuan! in fact, every installation of a distro can be a fork– lets just make that official. until then, we can let golinux decide… everything.

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  13. i dont know if thats golinux, but i can tell you (you can tell yourself) its not fsmithred.

    fsmithred wouldnt waste your time with the assumption about whats good enough for you.

    i actually agree (with this person who anonymously casts doubt on your identity and mine, but doesnt bother to offer her own, lol…) that SOME of these pieces of information are easier to find than you might think. but i also note the following:

    1. devuan has an official support forum, which is too busy banning and abusing people to give them any confidence that they will find this information in the open.

    2. unlike golinux, i can understand why doubt in devuan would compound itself, given the attitudes encountered. on the one hand, i sympathise enough with devuan to point to a recently-found list of contributors, when no one else believes such a list would exist. on the other hand, i sympathise with anyone frustrated enough with the anti-support forums to doubt that such a list would exist– i even realise that such a list might not be enough, for reasons we have yet to discuss. golinux simply thinks youre a troll. if every critic is a troll, why not just go back to trolling debian? i mean– oh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    the truth is, that if you treat users with questions the way that golinux does, youll have mounting numbers of critics that cant imagine the answers exist– because they asked on the forum and got her crap instead of an answer. if enough people found the answers before having to deal with the forum, this aspect of devuan criticism might die down.

    instead, the iron-fist approach makes everything worse. it gives critics more to rail against. bring them on! devuan needs more. and when the low-hanging fruit is no longer satisfying, we can shed sunlight on anything dubious. if devuan is what it says, the truth will prevail. its win-win: either theres one more good thing, or one more exposed scam. just keep hitting devuan with a stick until the candy comes out. theyll only make it more fun with their passive-aggressive representation.

    i believe devuan will earn its reputation, good or bad– or (for now) both.

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  14. The venom exhibited here only poisons those spewing it though there is no awareness of that dynamic. No communication is possible with such fools.

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  15. oh yeah, thats the generous veneer of pseudo-eastern philosophical bullshit to a tee.

    its not “venom exhibited here” your majesty, its utter disgust at your hypocrisy and dishonesty.

    pure narcissism– and why do narcissists love eastern philosophy so much? they seem to think it cloaks them. and look what shes telling us– “it only affects us, it doesnt affect me.”

    it affects devuan, actually. youre costing them money and hurting peoples trust in it. no, we didnt come to devuan with pure distrust. people like you actually discourage belief in whatever is being done.

    you dont encourage trust in devuan– you encourage exactly the thing that youre getting here. you fan the flames and damage alliances, and then blame your victims. the poison is your own, you just have no taste– which also explains why devuan has the LOWEST-CONTRAST colour themes in history! hues that look like bruises, or would if they were more than 5 degrees of intensity apart “i think that says ‘devuan’, let me load it in an editor and increase contrast to be sure.” what a pure ridiculous joke.

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  16. the more she acts like its not obvious who it is, the more her personality comes through.

    yes, golinux, **you cost devuan donations**. you directly lose them money, and you think people care what your american guru/bully has to say about people who disagree with you.

    the notion that any critique is poison– that it outweighs the hypocrisy and the bullshit she dumps onto visitors to her forum– youd think she was bryan lunduke. and you can find her documenting her (sometimes valid) critiques of other projects, just like we are doing now– but thats her privilege, we arent qualified. utter utter utter bullshit– the privilege in her head.

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  17. i find it particularly hilarious that someone who unfairly bans you from a forum says that communication with you is impossible. i bet if she picked your pocket she would blame you for not taking better care of your stuff.

    the funny thing is, ive met a few too many people like that in my travels. this is a person who said (as a supposed friend) that her way of caring for me was to hit me with a metaphorical stick.

    thats exactly what devuan needs right now. less carrot, more stick! where do you think i got the idea? if you really love devuan, hit it with a stick.

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  18. In brief, and gee, what have I started here 🙂

    My unix career started and ended last century. It was in the very early 90s where due to employment I was shoved to machines that were more potent and could handle the work instead of being paid to be seating in front of a dos/win3.1 machine waiting for a database to reorder itself to what I wanted. There were some sgi workstations that costed a ton, and some SUN stations that at the time appeared to be space-age machines. Ultrix/sunos/solaris… and the object was GIS data and mapping…. but for me it was no fun, just making money because I knew some math.
    In 96 I took a dive, a friend called a “class suicide” and abandoned all efforts of a bureaucratic career and returned to my love for hands-on mechanical work. Some of the navigational software I was implementing on yachts kept me in touch with my previous life but not for long. By 99 I had received through an old colleague a few free disks of red-hat. What a useless bunch of crap that was! My use of a pc had deteriorated into browsing the net, locating technical manuals and specs, reading and writing about politics, and being at the right place and the right time when indymedia and riseup were conceived and organized, but didn’t expect much of it to fruit at the time. Too bad I underestimated it.
    With Devuan I have my consciousness free. If you go back to the early posts and pages of this blog I praised initially Artix for pursuing that path of systemd freedom through Arch as I did Devuan on the Debian side. I had invested mentally into Devuan and around here I was the only one.
    Around here, there are a few of us. I do most of the writing, they do most of the technical feedback. We each have 1-2 machines, mostly older, each concentrates on one distribution, but we all run all of them, when possible to see how adoptable each one is to different hw. With Devuan I was alone pursuing it and believing-hoping for it. I kept getting discouraged by others but mostly from Devuan itself falling on its face after the summer introduction of Devuan 1. It was like users were working on it and the distribution was a fixed and abandoned one. This golinux entity was running around with a fire-extinguisher putting out flames of frustration pretending it is all getting cooked in the back room and a meal will be served. By December even the most liberated of Europeans must have had returned from summer vacation, ONE would think!
    I don’t mind golinux or her banning me, she is probably shoved on the side of things managing a forum and a few other things, and kept in darkness herself of what is “really” going on. That explains some of her technical advise, especially about repositories, which can still be found on the forum, being absolutely wrong. She wouldn’t even bother to ask those who do know to respond and create problems without knowing it. More than 6 months ago I was running jessie, which I soon abandoned, ascii, and ceres. She insisted that ceres had no devuan input at all, although it was running better than ascii, and systemd was nowhere in site. If it was so easy, without Devuan work, to run Debian Sid without systemd, and with sysvinit, what took so many years to get Jessie running?
    Fsmithred and refracta seemed for a while as the only reason to stay in touch with devuan, the only person that worked with users and helped them out, while the rest was remaining static.
    All this mental gaming with Devuan psychopathology prevented us from having sufficient time to invest in MX and AntiX, which seem to deserve it. They are constantly getting worked on, they run beautifully, they are way ahead of devuan being fully functional in alignment with Stretch/Buster/Sid. Most importantly they are very clear in what package is their own and what comes from Debian and how. This blurry “amprolla3” gadget is what has killed Devuan and makes it less serious of an effort, or maybe even dishonest. This shadowy filter/screening of 99% debian and 0-0.99% Devuan coming out of the darkness is really an issue. And you can trust the dark hole flowing packages for a while, having a positive image to trust on the gatekeepers of the hole, but once you realize that some of those gate-keepers are just lying through their teeth about what is really going on, you stay away from that black hole. When you hit ascii upgrade and see pkg1.0.1 and debian’ stretch is saying pkg1.0.3 YOU KNOW that what they are selling you is not authentic. Why are they lying about it???

    I still never got an answer.

    PS 1 Fig: If half of what you say is true, and if I understand what you were trying to do is honest, you have a friend here.

    PS 2 About the financials … hahh..!!! That is half of the picture, we “didn’t fall of a turnip truck” as our dear GoLinux had said once. If and when a distribution is being “bribed” by manufacturers, especially those in cahoots with the agents wearing red hats, and its developers are receiving some top of the line fresh pre-production servers to try their work on, I would sell to the 2nd hand market some boxes and go for a 3-6month vacation and put Devuan development back. Maybe throw $500 to golinux to keep the retards busy while development was been halted. It was about a year ago that stretch was being frozen to iron out last few bugs before official release, and it took a LOOONG time to do this. But Ascii is still in Beta. And next year Buster will be stable and Jessie will look to us like wheezy! Ancient history.
    My AntiX Sid is running like an ace, I can tell you this much, and if something is wrong I get a response within hours. Sometimes even a revision of a package that cures the problem. And a ton of wonderful in-house tools on top of the Debian ocean.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Most importantly they are very clear in what package is their own and what comes from Debian and how.

    id honestly like to know how antix and mx do it– ive learned more about that from this blog (so far) than i have from using (and remixing) antix. thats mostly because it was a very low priority of mine, for a very short time. fsmithred and i are both impressed with their boot time. it seems nearly instant.

    regarding devuan and antix, i think anyone working against systemd is doing a good thing. regarding devuan, how much is done APART from that determines whether its a good thing overall. im going to look more into the conspiracy theories this year– but i wont pretend im swayed; merely interested. theyve got too many good/honest/smart people getting just as “duped” as i am. however, if the theories are true i will ultimately prove them to myself over time. i really dont think amprolla is shady– aitor uses it on his derivative, and aitors just as good as fsmithred (though i still left gnuinos for refracta.)

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  20. One thing I can tell you for sure is that for a month steady this post has been on the top 5 list daily in number of viewers. So, anonymous, if there is constructive criticism to this post it should be added here. If there is a basis to defend devuan for what it has been criticized for, this is the place. Pointing out like a snitch with a hood who is who and who isn’t doesn’t “rationally” dismiss the criticism. Anyone on the internet can just copy it and the criticism is still valid as long as it is not answered.

    Nobody here says Devuan is not working. Devuan is not living up to its claims and it is covering up what is not working and what is not being done according to the claims. The fact that with lesser claims mx and antix have proved functional and reliable for years, running side by side, with debian stable, testing, and sid (as possible) and devuan being 2 years behind while not doing what it was claimed, is the issue and the object of criticism.

    So the displayed elitism “we answer to no one” by Devuan devs is unsubstantiated. Either they are lying or they don’t deserve their portrayed elitism.
    What am I talking about? Either shut the forum down and force users to seek help from the list, or make the elitists visit and work with users, or make the list less than a “dev internal chatroom hostile to anyone not being part of the gang or kissing up to it”.

    Simple!

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  21. On reading this, I have to say that it seems like a lot of fuss about a forum you don’t need to participate in.

    I don’t know about golinux, but I see a fallacy in this “nice project, with some great people, but a few [one] are ruining it…” thing.

    Supposing for one moment golinux is everything she has been described as here, then to me that reflects badly on the project and I would not make excuses for the project. The project representatives say a lot about the project – if they remain silent while one of their representatives behaves in the manner described above – then the project simply condones and endorses that person and their behaviour. Making excuses for the project and pointing the finger at one person, doesn’t absolve the project as a whole – in fact it may simply come across to some as weasel worded tactics to “divide” said project and convince them to ostracise or eject the specific person being criticised over their actions only on that forum – that won’t happen. The project endorses them, they are there and if only the project itself, through it’s own volition is able to remove them. End of.

    In similar news I actually went to the dev1 forum (using a proxy) and read some threads, but there is not a lot going on there these days. golinux’s ‘authoritarian’ approach will mostly drive away the “chat” and many of the ideologues, but you have to consider that is often considered a “feature” among software projects. If any of us tried to pull the s*** we have pulled at other sites at venues such as e.g. the FreeBSD forums or butnut forums, we would not last long at all.

    You have to face facts that political diatribes and examples of corporate conspiracy are not welcome. Myself and others were posting almost incessantly at LQ about the roles of big corporations in the free software and to cut a long story short – no one gives a flying f*** about it. I would not get away with half of that on the OpenBSD mailing lists for example.

    Unfortunately, if you want “channels” where you can express yourself, you need to create your own channels. I have recently discovered that at the linuxquestions site – where censorship is alive and well of course. Ultimately in the case of LQ, it’s his private site and he can do as he pleases – and in fact he has tolerated a lot for a very long time. I have a problem however with people being banned, on trumped up charges and lack of transparency over said ban – Linux oriented staff are human and Linux users, and like others they are biased – and to a moderator with the powers, in the right time and the right place, seeing someone who is anti-system posting in a certain way in a certain thread – well they will see a target.

    Anyway, back to your beloved dev1 – I am actually a spammer in their eyes (hence why I had to access via a proxy), so this statement is not strictly true:

    http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=20020

    I accessed from a different IP address, not a proxy, tried to reset my password, to see if my account were still active and it seems that it’s not. I may have changed my email address, but I can’t recall doing so…

    My point being however that I’m a “spammer” there, rather than an “exile”… but it hardly matters.

    Like

  22. Just a reminder that codeinfig no longer participates here. He got really pissed that his thesis on what he calls “social-marxists” in the education system of the US, had a negative influence on learning patterns. Somehow he kept arguing for days that his anti-marxist thesis had some relevance here. I am very critical of Marxism myself, but his rhetoric of US liberals being branded Marxists was as whacked out as your classic neo-liberal right wing fascist thug. Then he pulled a nationalistic superiority rationality that “we in English”, meaning we “in the US”, we know what we mean by the term of “social-Marxists”, “you inferior person, you don’t understand”. I didn’t even ban him or remove him as an editor, he removed himself and was gone, as he got offended by my “elitism”.

    If you care to read, log in as an editor and read them, they are not deleted (post and comments), they are just not appoved for publishing anymore. Despite of how much I may dislike something I hate to remove other peoples’ work. If you disagree with me and think this material is worth publishing here, go ahead, take the responsibility and publish them. I can only vote my own vote against it, but I respect the process. Our agreement then was that we both had to agree to publish something.

    Being all Devuan exiles doesn’t necesserally mean we have further political agreements, like Monsanto-Bayer haters, some can vote for Bernie, some can vote for Tramp, some wouldn’t vote if their arm was to be chopped off if they didn’t.

    Like

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